Why?

[(((Satori)))]

Here is an example where I believe the "dumbed down" thinking to be beneficial to scientific thinking.

Lets say you are learning to pocket balls using english.

To me the task seems much more manageable if you go into practice/playing with these simple principles.
1) If I cue the cueball off to the left then the objectball will go left of where I'm aiming and vice versa. Exception being close shots. (scientific reasoning being the close shots won't have time for much deflection and the spin will throw more than the deflection.)

2) The longer the shot the more principle 1 effect takes place

3) The harder the stroke the more principle 1 effect takes place.

4) The farther I cue from center the more principle1effect takes place.

I need to remember these principles and adjust my feel as needed.


Now this to me seems easier and more managable to get a feel for the conditions than knowing the exact cause... Deflection, curve, and throws and trying to practice knowing you have to adjust the formula for each shot. "Ok, Im going to stroke soft so it will deflect here and then start curving here, then colision induced throw will send it here, while spin induced throw will do this to the shot."

Nope, too much info. Just know the principles and get a feel imo.

 

[duckie]

Here is an example where I believe the "dumbed down" thinking to be beneficial to scientific thinking.

Lets say you are learning to pocket balls using english.

To me the task seems much more manageable if you go into practice/playing with these simple principles.
1) If I cue the cueball off to the left then the objectball will go left of where I'm aiming and vice versa. Exception being close shots. (scientific reasoning being the close shots won't have time for much deflection and the spin will throw more than the deflection.)

2) The longer the shot the more principle 1 effect takes place

3) The harder the stroke the more principle 1 effect takes place.

4) The farther I cue from center the more principle1effect takes place.

I need to remember these principles and adjust my feel as needed.


Now this to me seems easier and more managable to get a feel for the conditions than knowing the exact cause... Deflection, curve, and throws and trying to practice knowing you have to adjust the formula for each shot. "Ok, Im going to stroke soft so it will deflect here and then start curving here, then colision induced throw will send it here, while spin induced throw will do this to the shot."

Nope, too much info. Just know the principles and get a feel imo.

That's great for your style of play but does not mean knowing what you choose not to know would be harmful to another persons game if they want to know those things.

Sometimes knowing the details will help prevent you from trying the impossible. Something that wont work but because you were unaware of the details, you tried and failed.

Knowledge is power. This also explains why TOI and CTE have followers. It's those that don't care about the details therefore really can't think for themselves if something is fact or fiction when comes to pool.

 

[Sloppy Pockets]

Sometimes knowing the details will help prevent you from trying the impossible. Something that wont work but because you were unaware of the details, you tried and failed.

Knowledge is power. This also explains why TOI and CTE have followers. It's those that don't care about the details therefore really can't think for themselves if something is fact or fiction when comes to pool.

What's wrong with trying the impossible? That's what the practice table is for - seeing what works and what doesn't, then perfecting what works so you can use it consistently and at the proper time.

Do you really think all those unbelievable shots that we mortals drop our jaws over happened because Corey or Earl or Efren worked it all out ahead of time based upon knowledge of math and physics? LOL

 

[(((Satori)))]

That's great for your style of play but does not mean knowing what you choose not to know would be harmful to another persons game if they want to know those things.

I agree, everyone is different.

______________________________________________________________________
BTW, I am fully aware that Dr. Dave has a simple method for pocketing with english using BHE and FHE along with a combination of the two based on feel. And I know he does not add up the variables for each shot but I just wanted to point out how knowing something simple is easier than knowing every little detail in some cases imo.

 

[Chrippa]

What's wrong with trying the impossible? That's what the practice table is for - seeing what works and what doesn't, then perfecting what works so you can use it consistently and at the proper time.

Do you really think all those unbelievable shots that we mortals drop our jaws over happened because Corey or Earl or Efren worked it all out ahead of time based upon knowledge of math and physics? LOL

To cross, pass a limit

Thanks for the post

Chrippa

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Do you really think all those unbelievable shots that we mortals drop our jaws over happened because Corey or Earl or Efren worked it all out ahead of time based upon knowledge of math and physics? LOL

Yes, I do - but they undoubtedly "worked it all out" by trial and error, without benefit of clear rational explanations to guide their development. We don't have to do it the old fashioned way just because some pros had to do it that way.

pj
chgo

 

[duckie]

What's wrong with trying the impossible? That's what the practice table is for - seeing what works and what doesn't, then perfecting what works so you can use it consistently and at the proper time.

Do you really think all those unbelievable shots that we mortals drop our jaws over happened because Corey or Earl or Efren worked it all out ahead of time based upon knowledge of math and physics? LOL

It's obvious that you have never done one of those jaw dropping shots. I have ands there is no better feeling.

You do not get to their level just banging away. They know exactly what is going on, what needs to be consider on every shot and it is this knowledge of how things work that makes the jaw dropping shot happen. duh......

You do not do those shots without considering every aspect of what is needed. They are thinking, maybe not in the same terms as a Dr. Dave, but they are thinking about speed, spin, and so on.

They just don't walk up and poke and hope.

Start doing some jaw dropping shots and you might understand.

I've seen people try stuff that I knew wouldn't work because of my knowledge. I knew before that the shot would not work. They learned it would not by doing.....ie after the fact and not before which a miss can cost you the match.

 

[ENGLISH!]

That's great for your style of play but does not mean knowing what you choose not to know would be harmful to another persons game if they want to know those things.

Sometimes knowing the details will help prevent you from trying the impossible. Something that wont work but because you were unaware of the details, you tried and failed.

Knowledge is power. This also explains why TOI and CTE have followers. It's those that don't care about the details therefore really can't think for themselves if something is fact or fiction when comes to pool.

Greg,

I think you make an error when lumping people into pigeon holes but I understand & agree with you, mostly.

I'd been playing rather well for 46 years given my situations using some form of english for nearly every shot.

When I heard about CTE being a 100% totally objective aiming method, my hope got the better of my common sense, that is until I rather quickly saw that it was not & basically said to myself, ''what were you thinking, 'stupid'".

Now...that was about the same time that CJ was introducing TOI here. I quickly understood the principles behind TOI because of my physics education.

I went to the table & found it to work but I had a bit of trouble being consistent with it. That is, until CJ said something specific to me that helped me tone down & make my 'parallel shift' more precise.

TOI certainly has physics 'behind it' & it works. It certainly has it's place in every player's toolbox even if they put the tool, TOI, in a kitchen draw, for a time.

It seems to me that most that have played using english can very easily accept TOI which is basically the opposite in intent to english. While those that are still only cueing center ball want no part of TOI.

Tell someone that on a dirt track you have to steer right to go left & they will probably call you a liar & not believe you. Then when they get in the car or on the bike & get up some speed & don't do what they should, well it won't be pretty.

So... one can keep steering left to go left, that is, until they get up to speed, then they will rather quickly learn the reality of the situation.

I certainly can & do think for myself, no one thinks for me & I'm very very sure that there are extremely many more like me.

I hesitate to say this... but it appears that you are becoming much like those that you don't seem to like. You seem to be following them in their attitudes & styles of posting.

It seems that you've let your 'haters' beat you into their mold. I liked the 'old you' better.

Best 2 You & All,
Rick

 

[stan shuffett]

Greg,

I think you make an error when lumping people into pigeon holes but I understand & agree with you, mostly.

I'd been playing rather well for 46 years given my situations using some form of english for nearly every shot.

When I heard about CTE being a 100% totally objective aiming method, my hope got the better of my common sense, that is until I rather quickly saw that it was not & basically said to myself, ''what were you thinking, 'stupid'".

Now...that was about the same time that CJ was introducing TOI here. I quickly understood the principles behind TOI because of my physics education.

I went to the table & found it to work but I had a bit of trouble being consistent with it. That is, until CJ said something specific to me that helped me tone down & make my 'parallel shift' more precise.

TOI certainly has physics 'behind it' & it works. It certainly has it's place in every player's toolbox even if they put the tool, TOI, in a kitchen draw, for a time.

It seems to me that most that have played using english can very easily accept TOI which is basically the opposite in intent to english. While those that are still only cueing center ball want no part of TOI.

Tell someone that on a dirt track you have to steer right to go left & they will probably call you a liar & not believe you. Then when they get in the car or on the bike & get up some speed & don't do what they should, well it won't be pretty.

So... one can keep steering left to go left, that is, until they get up to speed, then they will rather quickly learn the reality of the situation.

I certainly can & do think for myself, no one thinks for me & I'm very very sure that there are extremely many more like me.

I hesitate to say this... but it appears that you are becoming much like those that you don't seem to like. You seem to be following them in their attitudes & styles of posting.

It seems that you've let your 'haters' beat you into their mold. I liked the 'old you' better.

Best 2 You & All,
Rick

Despite the fact that you continue to run your mouth negatively about CTE PRO ONE, something you know very very little about, speaks volumes about you.

And if you declare that you are knowledgable enough to speak about real CTE then I will meet you at Buffalos ASAP with a large sum of money betting you can not teach or even reasonably explain the system to interested bystanders.

Stan Shuffett

 

[Neil]

Greg,

I think you make an error when lumping people into pigeon holes but I understand & agree with you, mostly.

I'd been playing rather well for 46 years given my situations using some form of english for nearly every shot.

When I heard about CTE being a 100% totally objective aiming method, my hope got the better of my common sense, that is until I rather quickly saw that it was not & basically said to myself, ''what were you thinking, 'stupid'".

Now...that was about the same time that CJ was introducing TOI here. I quickly understood the principles behind TOI because of my physics education.

I went to the table & found it to work but I had a bit of trouble being consistent with it. That is, until CJ said something specific to me that helped me tone down & make my 'parallel shift' more precise.

TOI certainly has physics 'behind it' & it works. It certainly has it's place in every player's toolbox even if they put the tool, TOI, in a kitchen draw, for a time.

It seems to me that most that have played using english can very easily accept TOI which is basically the opposite in intent to english. While those that are still only cueing center ball want no part of TOI.

Tell someone that on a dirt track you have to steer right to go left & they will probably call you a liar & not believe you. Then when they get in the car or on the bike & get up some speed & don't do what they should, well it won't be pretty.

So... one can keep steering left to go left, that is, until they get up to speed, then they will rather quickly learn the reality of the situation.

I certainly can & do think for myself, no one thinks for me & I'm very very sure that there are extremely many more like me.

I hesitate to say this... but it appears that you are becoming much like those that you don't seem to like. You seem to be following them in their attitudes & styles of posting.

It seems that you've let your 'haters' beat you into their mold. I liked the 'old you' better.

Best 2 You & All,
Rick

And there you go "lumping" again. Please show even just ONE post where someone stated they only use center ball and want no part of toi. YOU are the one that can't seem to actually see what is written because you right away lump people into categories and even discount what is said just because of who said it. (you even admitted to that very recently in another thread).

Also, please show just ONE post where someone stated that the principles behind toi don't work. What people have said, is that it is not presented accurately. Not that one should never use it. Every good player uses it at the appropriate times. It's nothing new.

You yourself are toi's biggest proponent, yet you still don't understand it.

 

[BilliardsAbout]

I'm curious, how do you "think through a table"?

Sorry, I found the original post a little irksome because you and PJ both know how to think ahead, like in a chess match. Non-rotation game sorting balls into trouble shots, triangles, sequences, safety balls, "safety valves", etc.

The post implied that because some of us think in different ways than others...

 

[CJ Wiley]

I couldn't possibly explain in writing what it takes to become a 2nd Degree Blackbelt

Sorry, I found the original post a little irksome because you and PJ both know how to think ahead, like in a chess match. Non-rotation game sorting balls into trouble shots, triangles, sequences, safety balls, "safety valves", etc.

The post implied that because some of us think in different ways than others...

There's a lot less thinking at the championship level than you've been led to believe.

Imagine a child insistent on understanding how to walk before they take their first step (they would be still crawling to work in the morning perhaps?)

How about a bicycle, would you need to know the specific physics involved or would it potentially slow down the learning process.

I couldn't possibly explain in writing what it takes to become a 2nd Degree Blackbelt to someone unwilling to experience it.......pool is the same scenario.

 

[ENGLISH!]

Despite the fact that you continue to run your mouth negatively about CTE PRO ONE, something you know very very little about, speaks volumes about you.

And if you declare that you are knowledgable enough to speak about real CTE then I will meet you at Buffalos ASAP with a large sum of money betting you can not teach or even reasonably explain the system to interested bystanders.

Stan Shuffett

Long very logical post cut down to to the following.

Sir,

I've been advised to ignore you & I am going to follow that advice.

Best 2 You & ALL,
Rick

 

[ENGLISH!]

There's a lot less thinking at the championship level than you've been led to believe.

Imagine a child insistent on understanding how to walk before they take their first step (they would be still crawling to work in the morning perhaps?)

How about a bicycle, would you need to know the specific physics involved or would it potentially slow down the learning process.

I couldn't possibly explain in writing what it takes to become a 2nd Degree Blackbelt to someone unwilling to experience it.......pool is the same scenario.

! ! ! :thumbup2: ! ! !

 

[stan shuffett]

Long very logical post cut down to to the following.

Sir,

I've been advised to ignore you & I am going to follow that advice.

Best 2 You & ALL,
Rick

Exactly, a moderator has told you to move on. . But you have not been able to do that.

The fact remains, you know very little about real CTE. And yet you continue to spout off as if you are an authority of some sort. I knew there was not a chance in hades that you'd meet with me at a table with what little know about CTE.

Stan Shuffett

 

[ENGLISH!]

Exactly, a moderator has told you to move on. . But you have not been able to do that.

The fact remains, you know very little about real CTE. And yet you continue to spout off as if you are an authority of some sort. I knew there was not a chance in hades that you'd meet with me at a table with what little know about CTE.

Stan Shuffett

---------------------------

 

[Colin Colenso]

Why ought we presume that CJ is an elite ball pocketer?

9-Ball is one of the least demanding of billiard games when it comes to requiring a high degree of pocketing skill. It is more about CB shaping, knowledge of patterns, breaking, kicking and safety play.

Difficult pots are usually refused in favor of a safety.

I would guess there are a thousand guys in the UK who would get the cheese in a pure pocketing challenge against CJ.

He's good at the game he plays, but 9-ball does not produce many elite ball pocketers.

It's a bit like thinking a great mile runner must be a good sprinter, because you've never seen many sprinters.

 

[Chrippa]

It's obvious that you have never done one of those jaw dropping shots. I have ands there is no better feeling.

You do not get to their level just banging away. They know exactly what is going on, what needs to be consider on every shot and it is this knowledge of how things work that makes the jaw dropping shot happen. duh......

You do not do those shots without considering every aspect of what is needed. They are thinking, maybe not in the same terms as a Dr. Dave, but they are thinking about speed, spin, and so on.

They just don't walk up and poke and hope.

Start doing some jaw dropping shots and you might understand.

I've seen people try stuff that I knew wouldn't work because of my knowledge. I knew before that the shot would not work. They learned it would not by doing.....ie after the fact and not before which a miss can cost you the match.

Hi Duckie,

Thanks for the post. Some questions heading in your direction.

Have you ever seen a shot being done that you thought would´t go based on your "knowledge"?
Are you still finding new things to improve on?
Why?
What is it that draws you to playing pool?
What is pushing you to play pool?

Regards

Chrippa

 

[BeiberLvr]

Greg,

I think you make an error when lumping people into pigeon holes but I understand & agree with you, mostly.

I'd been playing rather well for 46 years given my situations using some form of english for nearly every shot.

When I heard about CTE being a 100% totally objective aiming method, my hope got the better of my common sense, that is until I rather quickly saw that it was not & basically said to myself, ''what were you thinking, 'stupid'".

Now...that was about the same time that CJ was introducing TOI here. I quickly understood the principles behind TOI because of my physics education.

I went to the table & found it to work but I had a bit of trouble being consistent with it. That is, until CJ said something specific to me that helped me tone down & make my 'parallel shift' more precise.

TOI certainly has physics 'behind it' & it works. It certainly has it's place in every player's toolbox even if they put the tool, TOI, in a kitchen draw, for a time.

It seems to me that most that have played using english can very easily accept TOI which is basically the opposite in intent to english. While those that are still only cueing center ball want no part of TOI.

Tell someone that on a dirt track you have to steer right to go left & they will probably call you a liar & not believe you. Then when they get in the car or on the bike & get up some speed & don't do what they should, well it won't be pretty.

So... one can keep steering left to go left, that is, until they get up to speed, then they will rather quickly learn the reality of the situation.

I certainly can & do think for myself, no one thinks for me & I'm very very sure that there are extremely many more like me.

I hesitate to say this... but it appears that you are becoming much like those that you don't seem to like. You seem to be following them in their attitudes & styles of posting.

It seems that you've let your 'haters' beat you into their mold. I liked the 'old you' better.

Best 2 You & All,
Rick

BS, Rick

CJ released his TOI DVD in late 2012/early 2013. If anyone cares to use the search function, they can see you were quick to jump on the bandwagon.

Now you yourself have said numerous times the one thing that made you think CTE wasn't objective was this VIDEO.

Which as you can see was uploaded in July 2013. More than half a year after you were already in love with TOI, and which you really didn't start referring to until a few months ago.

It's cool if you like TOI, but don't act like it was your hatred of CTE that made you start using TOI.

 

[CJ Wiley]

.most players just play safe when faced with a difficult shot.

Why ought we presume that CJ is an elite ball pocketer?

9-Ball is one of the least demanding of billiard games when it comes to requiring a high degree of pocketing skill. It is more about CB shaping, knowledge of patterns, breaking, kicking and safety play.

Difficult pots are usually refused in favor of a safety.

I would guess there are a thousand guys in the UK who would get the cheese in a pure pocketing challenge against CJ.

He's good at the game he plays, but 9-ball does not produce many elite ball pocketers.

It's a bit like thinking a great mile runner must be a good sprinter, because you've never seen many sprinters.

Kim Davenport's TARGET POOL was best test for ball-pocketing and position play, not 9-Ball. I grew up playing 15 Ball Rotation and 8 Ball, these are the most challenging games imho. When the "One Foul Rules" came out it cut down on the need to be a great ball pocketer....most players just play safe when faced with a difficult shot.