APA Sandbagging

[robsnotes4u]

Many smart people, with good intentions, have tried, in vain, to prevent sandbagging by choosing the “right” statistics, the “right” mathematics and the “right” match-making methods. Inevitably, since that fails, they are forced to apply a band aid in the form of handicap police, skill level limit or some other "fix". The statistics, mathematics and match-making have little or nothing to do with whether or not people sandbag. It’s about the incentives.

It is often stated that a certain handicapping system cannot be sandbagged or it is difficult to sandbag. This is wishful thinking. Any rating/handicapping system that is based on past performance is vulnerable to sandbagging. Any new player can play wrong handed for as long as it takes to have a firmly established rating and then switch to his or her other hand. When you hear someone say a handicapping system is sandbag proof, take it with a grain of salt.



You might have already guessed, I'm working on an idea. Stay tuned. :grin:

Don

I think you would be amazed by Fargo Ratings. The number of people and matches around the world that have been input is VERY large. I won't say a number as you would not believe my number and it would be light.

Imagine a system that adjusts your rating daily. Even if you don't play today, someone who has played someone, who has played someone, etc that you have played affects your rating. It's coming.. Every game makes a difference.

Can somebody sandbag, yes, for a little while but once he starts to win it will correct itself quickly


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[MiscueBlues]

I will not now, nor ever listen to a team Captain that tells me I have lose a set. Especially in APA.

End rant...


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Well done sir.


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[lorider]

i have no doubt sand bagging goes on in apa. the thing is you will find sand baggers in any handicapped league.

i do doubt sand bagging is as rampant as some people on here would lead you to believe. you see...the apa is 4 times larger than the next largest league so its obvious you are 4 times as likely to encounter a sand bagger.

i also think it is blown out of proportion due to many people can not seem to fathom that some people just happen to be very inconsistent and have very good nights and very bad nights....like me. :grin:

i have been accused of being a sand bagger in apa more than once...i also have been accused of being under handicapped in napa more than once. funny how in any other league the term under handicapped is used but the term sand bagger is always used when the apa league is mentioned.

let me give you a perfect example of some one " me " being wrong fully accused of sand bagging.

2 weeks ago i faced a 7 in 9 ball on fri night.. i am a 5. i won 38-32. the following morning i went to a city tournament and had some one tell me that after i left fri night the 7 was going around to every one and complaining i was a sand bagger. i was told that he also called the lo from the pool hall and complained about me.

now here is the kicker..... 2 weeks prior to me beating him we faced his team in tri cups where i lost to his daughter in law. we were tied and it was the last match. when i lost it put us out of the tri cups.

here is the real kicker.... she is a friggin 2. now any one with half a brain knows you are not gonna lay low in one of the most important matches all year to keep your handicap down and then play like efren 2 weeks later in a regular session match that dont mean shit.

he did not say shit when his daughter in law puts us out of the trri cups but 2 weeks later he wants to complain to every one who will listen i am a sand bagger just because i beat him ?

i believe there are a whole lot of people in pool just like him who cry sand bagger when they lose.

 

[Type79]

My contention is that the handicap system in the APA ENCOURAGES sandbagging. The handicap system makes sandbagging part of the strategy.

I fully understand the system and the strategy. It just doesn't suit my interest, which is playing my best game to the best of my ability.

 

[tjshaw02]

I'd tell the team I was leaving at the end of the session.

Then start your own team in the Masters Division where there are no handicaps for the players.

I did this, not because my Captain ever suggested losing for handicap purposes, but because I wanted to always play the best player on the opposing team. I also had a tough time watching 18 inning matches between a 1 & 2.

Now I get my butt handed to me, however, I know my ability is improving by competing against better competition.

Good luck.

I did say this, but unfortunately I am new to the area and have no people to to start my own team. I did reach out to the LO to find me new placement for next session though.

 

[jeffj2h]

i have no doubt sand bagging goes on in apa. the thing is you will find sand baggers in any handicapped league.

i do doubt sand bagging is as rampant as some people on here would lead you to believe. you see...the apa is 4 times larger than the next largest league so its obvious you are 4 times as likely to encounter a sand bagger.

i also think it is blown out of proportion

I completely agree. I was on a roll for a few months and was deservedly moved to an SL8 in 9ball. Then I regressed. Some weeks I play like a SL8 and some weeks like a SL5.

Boy do I feel great on those good nights. Bullet proof. Focused. Nerves of steel. Dead stroke. Like I've figured this game out...

Jeff

 

[tjshaw02]

The captain of your former team is an idiot. Find another team to play on. There will be plenty who want a teammate that plays to win! :thumbup:

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

Just a follow up, I am now playing on a UPA league team out of the same hall on the same night. Playing exclusively on Diamond 7ft. Have only been asked to play my best and win! Love it and feel like my game is improving immensely. I was a SL5 in APA and am already a 6 in UPA.

 

[Inaction]

I do not agree with losing a game on purpose to lower a rating or average.

However, in a VNEA league match years ago, we needed 5 balls in the last game to win the first round. Our guy was told before hand to shoot the eight in if he gets the five, but not likely to win the game.

The opponent, Larry, was a very good player.

Our guy made his fifth point and had an easy shot on the 8, but missed. Larry then figured out what happened and played for a rerack by playing safe. At the time, there was a rule that if there were 6 consecutive shots without a ball made, it was a rerack (before ball in hand). Larry then broke and ran to win the round.

This was all strategy IMO, and losing the game wouldn't be anything to be ashamed of in this team event.

 

[drhanson]

One thing I've noticed in our area is that my league's home tables are much tighter and tougher than many of the others in town. Our Thursday and Wednesday night leagues have many LTC teams qualified in 8 and 9, definitely a higher percentage than others. I've always wondered how APA accounts for table difference. Where our tricups and LTCs are held the tables are so much more forgiving than our home tables and I feel like it adds to our innings without anyone doing sandbagging. I've noticed the teams playing on BBs don't do nearly as well as our teams playing on stubborn 8 footers. Our LTCs are played on forgiving 8 footers.

I sometimes feel a little guilty about this; my APA team plays on Diamond 7' tables. During LTC & some other tournaments that are played on Valley's I think we have an advantage. I think somebody posted a while back that the difference between the Diamond and Valley bar box is 1/2 to 1 skill level. I think that's a fair assessment. It's kind of like sanctioned sandbagging if you look at it that way.

 

[lorider]

I joined my 1st ever league 10 years ago...bcapl. I played for 2 sessions and was a 7 when I quit pool entirely for 4 years. I joined spa 4 years ago and I am a 5 in both 8and 9 ball. I was a 6 in 8 ball for 1 session 2 years ago.

Have I regressed in playing ability as I have gotten older .... 60 years old. Or am I one of those famous spa sandbaggers since I have remained a 5 for the last few years?

 

[tjshaw02]

Have I regressed in playing ability as I have gotten older .... 60 years old. Or am I one of those famous spa sandbaggers since I have remained a 5 for the last few years?

I would say that if you are actively playing to win everytime you get to the table and not purposely losing then sandbagging is not part of the equation.

 

[Celophanewrap]

I sometimes feel a little guilty about this; my APA team plays on Diamond 7' tables. During LTC & some other tournaments that are played on Valley's I think we have an advantage. I think somebody posted a while back that the difference between the Diamond and Valley bar box is 1/2 to 1 skill level. I think that's a fair assessment. It's kind of like sanctioned sandbagging if you look at it that way.

I think it's sort of a glass half empty half full kind of thing. In my experience all Valleys are different. After set up you could measure and find that a Valley is level at every point but when you play on it the ball will roll funny. Whether it's the felt or the slate or the curve of the earth... or whatever, I have never found two that play exactly the same. Two identical Valley tables set up side by side in the same room by the same mechanic will play different. You set up a couple of Diamonds in different pool rooms that have been leveled and they will generally be consistent. What gives the Diamond players an advantage is you could say the cream always rises to the top. I think you rarely would find a Diamond table in a bar or somewhere where pool was an activity that goes with your beer. In bars you find mostly Valleys, but as much as a Diamond player would try to control whitey on a Valley you will get some odd rolls, the Valley player will adjust a little more quickly or in many (not all) circumstances hit the ball too hard to care what kind of table it is.
Personally I like the Valleys, each has it's own personality and it's what I have always played on. I enjoy the Diamonds and once I adjust to the speed of the table I'm fine, but for the bar game, overall I like the Valleys.

 

[JasBy]

I really think the solution here would be for the APA to sanction a middle league with a higher handicap limit, but not the full on no limit. Our local league in MN, M8, does that. You have open, advanced, and masters. My team played open for many years in the same league and began to have issues with the handicap limit. Instead of sandbagging, we just convinced everyone in the league to move to the advanced level, which fixed the handicap issue and also got rid of slop counting.
I really just see this as a missed opportunity by the APA to cater to what the players want - I think they would be surprised by the support for a league that had a 26-27 rating limit and call pocket rules.

 

[Scott Lee]

tjshaw02...Glad to hear you found a new team to play on...sad to hear you couldn't find one in APA (I happen to believe that all league play is good). Don't give up...it is a good league, when the LO cares about the players. Nice to hear that your game is improving! :thumbup:

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

Just a follow up, I am now playing on a UPA league team out of the same hall on the same night. Playing exclusively on Diamond 7ft. Have only been asked to play my best and win! Love it and feel like my game is improving immensely. I was a SL5 in APA and am already a 6 in UPA.

 

[Dockter]

I can see why APA would have more sandbagging than other leagues with the 23 point rule and teams that just want to stay together. That being said every league or game that has handicap for that matter have sandbaggers, I just don't think there are as many as people think there are. Some people just can't handle that a weaker player can have a really good night and it has fallen to the norm to blame sandbagging instead of accepting one person didn't shoot up to par or one person just had a lights out night.

I have a kid in my VNEA league that averages a 6 and he ran two tables in a tournament and people couldn't understand why he was rated so low. Those were the first 2 tables he has ever ran and he just couldn't do anything wrong that night.

 

[Type79]

Some people just can't handle that a weaker player can have a really good night and it has fallen to the norm to blame sandbagging instead of accepting one person didn't shoot up to par or one person just had a lights out night.

People can recognize that players can not only be inconsistent but play better than their average on occasion.

The point is that from observation over the course of a session, it can be recognized who is playing at their true level and who is sandbagging.

 

[Dockter]

People can recognize that players can not only be inconsistent but play better than their average on occasion.

The point is that from observation over the course of a session, it can be recognized who is playing at their true level and who is sandbagging.

If you're using session as in a season I totally agree. If you mean one shooting session I disagree. The good sandbaggers are normally good enough to hide their speed for a short set and someone that is just having a lights out night may look like an A player although a top notch player can tell if a player is just getting some good rolls but most can't tell the difference between an A player and a C player having a good night.

I remember a friend of mine complaining because a guy at a tournament was leaving himself perfect every time and not putting anything on the cb. He thought he was just getting lucky every shot. He is used to C players drawing all over the table and didn't recognize a guy that is using a little left/right and never left himself bad enough to let out his stroke. Most players don't know what to look for to tell if a player is actually stalling or having a good night.

 

[Type79]

If you're using session as in a season I totally agree.

Session = Season

The #2 team in our league consistently sandbags the entire first half of the session/season and then gets hot for the remainder.

For me, a match holds little interest if I am playing a former skill level 6 player who is ranked a 3 because he is purposely banging shots into the rails 6" from the pockets.

 

[Dockter]

Session = Season

The #2 team in our league consistently sandbags the entire first half of the session/season and then gets hot for the remainder.

For me, a match holds little interest if I am playing a former skill level 6 player who is ranked a 3 because he is purposely banging shots into the rails 6" from the pockets.

Yeah, I agree then. Over a season you can tell who is just improving, who is having a good night and who is bagging. In VNEA we don't get sent to Vegas or anything like that so you will watch the number 1 or 2 team drop out of their spots pretty fast in some leagues just so they aren't forced to move up. I'll never understand people that don't want to shoot to their potential or improve. I played in a league a couple years ago that we could have not shown up for the last 3 weeks and still took first. How is that fun to people?

 

[WoodyMPW]

For me, a match holds little interest if I am playing a former skill level 6 player who is ranked a 3 because he is purposely banging shots into the rails 6" from the pockets.

Isn't that why once you are ranked a 6 you would never drop below a 5 in the APA? I thought I read that somewhere. Unless you lose an arm or eye-ball.