Interesting observation in an old Mosconi vs Fats video

[Mr. Bond]

There's no question who was the better player.
But what Fat's did, that Mosconi did not, is create a successful 'brand name' for himself including a media and product line that rivals, if not surpasses even that of The Black Widow.

Multiple mainstream television series featuring THE most famous people in show business at the time.

Multiple guest appearances on variety shows etc, radio interviews, ribbon cuttings, celebrity auctions, he also hosted "media day" at Johnston City with local celebs etc.

Produced an actual 12" record album (and CD) of storytelling.

Featured in a full length film - The Player.

Author of numerous books.

Executive of Rozel industries with his own line of pool tables, chalk, racks, pool peas, cues, talc, etc

It's hard to say who might have "reached" more people. A better question might be, what kind of impression did the public walk away with?

When Joe Schmoe in CoCoMo goes to his local pool supply store, never having met Fats nor Mosconi, and he sees a product on the wall with a fancy name:

" Minnesota Fats - World's Greatest Hustler "

But he doesn't see a product with the name:

"Willie Mosconi"

What impression does Joe get?
There are bazillions of people who have never seen or heard ANY other pool celebrity's name besides Minnesota Fats - or Jeanette Lee - neither of which could hold a candle to Mosconi.

Does that make Jeanette and Fats a 'better' ambassador than Mosconi or simply a more successful ambassador?

 

[lfigueroa]

Lou...One slight correction. Mosconi's "disdain" for pool did not come from it being "so easy for him". It came from after winning a cash prize of $75, during the depression, his father MADE him go to work, playing pool as a job. That was literally why he hated pool. There was no enjoyment for him.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

hmmmm, no.

Scott, Mosconi's dad originally wanted him to do anything but pool. And even after Willie showed what he could do on a pool table at a young age (the old using potatoes for balls story), his dad enrolled him in business school and eventually Mosconi went to work at an upholstery factory. Mosconi won the $75 event after quitting his upholstery job. His dad was sick, mom had cancer, and there was a family of eight to feed. That's when he started playing seriously and other than Mosconi feeling a responsibility to support his family, his dad did not push him into the game.

As to to the too easy part, Mosconi commented on how easy it was to win the $75 event. And in later years he was quoted as saying the game was so easy a monkey could do it.

Lou Figueroa

 

[lfigueroa]

There's no question who was the better player.
But what Fat's did, that Mosconi did not, is create a successful 'brand name' for himself including a media and product line that rivals, if not surpasses even that of The Black Widow.

Multiple mainstream television series featuring THE most famous people in show business at the time.

Multiple guest appearances on variety shows etc, radio interviews, ribbon cuttings, celebrity auctions, he also hosted "media day" at Johnston City with local celebs etc.

Produced an actual 12" record album (and CD) of storytelling.

Featured in a full length film - The Player.

Author of numerous books.

Executive of Rozel industries with his own line of pool tables, chalk, racks, pool peas, cues, talc, etc

It's hard to say who might have "reached" more people. A better question might be, what kind of impression did the public walk away with?

When Joe Schmoe in CoCoMo goes to his local pool supply store, never having met Fats nor Mosconi, and he sees a product on the wall with a fancy name:

" Minnesota Fats - World's Greatest Hustler "

But he doesn't see a product with the name:

"Willie Mosconi"

What impression does Joe get?
There are bazillions of people who have never seen or heard ANY other pool celebrity's name besides Minnesota Fats - or Jeanette Lee - neither of which could hold a candle to Mosconi.

Does that make Jeanette and Fats a 'better' ambassador than Mosconi or simply a more successful ambassador?

Mosconi was making headlines in the NYTimes, back when pool mattered and he was winning 15 titles. In retirement he probably made thousands more appearances than Fats ever did.

Fats' two TV shows were not prime time stuff, more like UHF.

Fats' record was an oddity (think William Shatner singing "Lucy in the Sky"). No one bought it.

The movie, "The Player" was worst than the "Baltimore Bullet." No one saw it.

I only know of one book Fats' authored other than the multiple rule books and that accompanied some of the gimcracks he sold for Rozel.

Mosconi, OTOH, represented Brunswick, authored a biography actually rooted in truth and two instructional books still in print.

People were amused by Fats and those that knew nothing about serious pool thought he was the greatest. Those that could appreciate what Mosconi could do on a pool table knew differently.

Today? Walk into a pool room and more people probably know who Honey Boo Boo is that either Fats or Mosconi.

Lou Figueroa

 

[Cowboy Dennis]

While watching an old video on YouTube between Mosconi and Minnesota Fats with Howard Cosell announcing I noticed something very obvious. I admit I only watched the 9 Ball competition so far. In the whole 9 Ball match there was not one safety. No defense at all. Both players attempted to make EVERY shot. Yet in Mosconi's book which I read years ago he stated that if you're not 99% sure you can make a shot, play safe. Could it possibly be since this was more of an exhibition that they were told to attempt every shot? Or maybe Willy was just referring to straight pool in his book? Opinions?

If this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gtnmfb9Dnkg is the match you refer to then you were not watching very closely.

In game 1 of the nine-ball Mosconi attempts a long cross-corner on the 2 ball and clearly plays it short while drawing the cueball to the headrail.

In the 2nd game Mosconi plays a clear safety off the 4 ball (as he had no viable shot) leaving Fats long.

RBL

 

[Cowboy Dennis]

Well, Cowboy, you obviously have access to info I do not. All I have is what DD said publicly.

As to the rest, if you've read R.A Dyer's most excellent "The Hustler & The Champ" which chronicles the whole genesis and denouement of the Fats Mosconi feud, it's clear that it was good for both men and for pool. So with that I'd have to agree.

Lou Figueroa

Lou,

Here is public exchange that Freddy & I had in another life. This all started with Freddy telling C.J. Wiley that SJD did not like Fats which was very wrong and I could not abide it. As was his habit Freddy completely ignored the point in his 1st response but on his 2nd response admitted DD did not like Fats at all. For the sake of brevity some sentences have been omitted as they are not relevant:

Freddy,

This has been misconstrued long enough. SJD has never once said he didn't like Fats, he always maintained, rightly or wrongly, that Fats would never have been as big as he was if it wasn't for "The Hustler". SJD never once said he didn't like Fats.

Danny DiLiberto is the one who actually despises & hates Fats, and talks about it at a moments notice. He is the one jealous of Fats and his success. Danny D. is a good friend of yours and I don't expect you to knock him but you should at least be right when you knock the Duck. You're not right here.

Dennis

Why should I have to be right when I knock the Duck? He certainly doesnt offer me the same consideration. Spouting unsubstantiated claims is the stock in trade of CJ #1. CJ #2 is of course CJ Wiley.

Was he right when he said I never saw Puckett draw the cue ball 5 rails? Was he right when he said Puckett wasnt famous for his Nineball break as I said? Was he right when he said Hubert Cokes was an average player and never played anybody 8 or no count? Was he right when he said Fats never beat Squirrel even 1pkt in Tampa for $400 a game? Was he right when he said I never beat the people that I said I beat? Was he right when he called me a low-level shortstop? Was he right when he challenged me when I said Cannonball Chapman was a top player? Was he right when he challenged me when I said Mexican Johnny was a top player on a 5 x 10? Enough said?

In all of the above examples, he wasnt remotely close to being right. I could probably go on for another 45 minutes with examples of the above. Now can everyone understand why I would like to put Sarin gas into his oxygen tank?


Beard

Freddy,

You make some valid points. Don't think the Duck & I haven't gone 'round & 'round about him saying things didn't happen in a poolroom 10 states away that he wasn't in. We have, most recently about Cokes.

That's still a far cry from having a paper trail (here onsite) where he's never said he didn't like Fats and having someone intentionally write otherwise.

I'm glad we agree that SJD never wrote that he didn't like Fats. I think DiLiberto is the only person I ever heard rag on Fats and he does it very meanly.

You are right about Danny. And he is a close friend. And I am careful not to bring Fats up around him because I dont want to argue with Danny because as you may know, he is a "little" stubborn. But I love Danny, so I just ignore that part of him. I feel no such compunctions re CJ#1.

Beard

RBL

 

[flyvirginiaguy]

While watching an old video on YouTube between Mosconi and Minnesota Fats with Howard Cosell announcing I noticed something very obvious. I admit I only watched the 9 Ball competition so far. In the whole 9 Ball match there was not one safety. No defense at all. Both players attempted to make EVERY shot. Yet in Mosconi's book which I read years ago he stated that if you're not 99% sure you can make a shot, play safe. Could it possibly be since this was more of an exhibition that they were told to attempt every shot? Or maybe Willy was just referring to straight pool in his book? Opinions?

It is a shame we do not have videos of Mosconi in his prime. But Willie probably felt he did not need to play safe to beat Fats. Plus, safety play would be totally boring to watch on ABC Prime Time.

 

[Mr. Bond]

Mosconi was making headlines in the NYTimes, back when pool matter and he was winning 15 titles.

Mosconi was indeed making headlines in the pool world, with title after title.
But at the end of it all, Fat's television (and radio) air time FAR outweighed that of Mosconi. Which means there's a very realistic possibility that more people were "reached" by Fats than Mosconi

In retirement he probably made thousands more appearances than Fats ever did.

"Thousands more" appearances in local halls with how many spectators in each?
(see also the info below)

Fats' two TV shows were not prime time stuff, more like UHF.

One of the shows was produced in Chicago by WFLD, not exactly a small market even on a UHF station.

His most successful show, Celebrity Billiards was produced in Hollywood and included 39.5 hours of completed tapings. It was syndicated in 70 markets across the country, with Channel 2 KTVI (ABC) in St. Louis as it's premier station.

Within 2 weeks of the show launch it was rated the #1 sport/game related show in the NY market and #3 in L.A.

The show featured Bill Cosby, Milton Berle, Buddy Hackett, George Burns, Mickey Rooney, Zsa Zsa Gabor, Steve Allen, James Garner, Phyllis Diller, Frankie Avalon, Groucho Marx, The Smothers Brothers, Carl Reiner, Red Buttons and more.

The show reached and entertained untold millions of Americans. Moreso than a single man winning the world 14.1 championship, again.

Fats' record was an oddity (think William Shatner singing "Lucy in the Sky"). No one bought it.

If true, it doesn't really matter. He still did it.

The movie, "The Player" was worst than the "Baltimore Bullet." No one saw it.

Lots of people saw it, I have proof. But even if they didn't, it doesn't matter. He still did it.

I only know of one book Fats' authored other than the multiple rule books and that accompanied some of the gimcracks he sold for Rozel.

Again, it doesn't really matter. What matters is he got his name everywhere, on everything. He had books with his name on them, and tables, and cues, chalk, tip clamps, repair kits, cleaners, talc, peas, bottles, racks and whatever else he could find....and the laws of marketing went to work.

Which is my whole point, Mosconi was the world's greatest pool player while Fats was the world's greatest Hustler. He hustled more than any other player - meaning - he made things happen, everywhere he went. Like the Howard Stern of pool - the most popular asshole in multimedia history.

Mosconi, OTOH, represented Brunswick, authored a biography actually rooted in truth and two instructional books still in print.

Mosconi OTOH represented Brunswick, and got paid for it, so he didn't need to hustle his name and his wares - by himself- to get paid. Mosconi found the gravy train and rode it.
And to what end? To be the poster boy for what amounted to a large self-serving monopolistic corporation with a record of repeated contract disputes with sponsored players going back into the 1880s.

Makes you wonder if the money was all that mattered to him, since he allegedly didn't like to play that much.



People were amused by Fats and those that knew nothing about serious pool thought he was the greatest. Those that could appreciate what Mosconi could do on a pool table knew differently.

Absolutely true.

Today? Walk into a pool room and more people probably know who Honey Boo Boo is that either Fats or Mosconi.

god I hope not

Lou Figueroa

I hope you don't think I'm trying to suggest that Fats was a better ambassador.
I'm not.

 

[tim913]

Fats wasn't good enough to play defense, and Mosconi didn't need to. He would get another shot anyway

 

[HaroldWilson]

I don't doubt that Mosconi might be upset that a player got close to beating him, even beat him on rare occasion, or just played too many safeties. There's more than one account of him saying to an opponent, words to the effect, "They came to see me, not you."

However, I challenge you to provide anything to support your statement that, "Eventually, Willie ran out of rooms to go to." Anything at all.

As to the rest, Fats was a loud mouth braggart who fed stray dogs. He claimed to have beat "every living human for the gelt" when that was far, far from the truth. Fats wouldn't know the truth if it came up and bit him on his sizable carbuncle. He made fun of the true champions because he knew he could never be one of them. What was that famous line from McGoorty? oh yes, here it is:

"I'm sorry, but Minnesota Fats was never a top player. He was good, sure, but not tops. There have always been at least twenty people in the country who would have been glad to swim a river of shit to play Fats for money."

Lou Figueroa

But he was a character and life needs characters...and its a very boring world without these types of people and they deserve far more respect.

 

[lfigueroa]

I hope you don't think I'm trying to suggest that Fats was a better ambassador.
I'm not.

Channel 2 was the fuzzy station that barely came in, when I lived in SF. I loved pool and think I saw one episode of one of Fats' shows. I doubt his viewership numbers were significant.

I suggest that back in the day, when pool was front page material for every major newspaper, more people across the country read about Mosconi's exploits *for at least 15 years* than watched a few episodes of Fats' show.

The only other point I'd make is that Mosconi also happen to make a movie. I think it was called "The Hustler," for which he was technical adviser and had a brief cameo role. (Since we're picking nits, he was also in a music video: George Thorogood's "Bad to the Bone" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IyhJ69mD7xI) Ironically, if Fats' hadn't appropriated the name of the mythical pool player portrayed by Jackie Gleason in the movie most of us might never have heard of him.

Lou Figueroa

 

[lfigueroa]

But he was a character and life needs characters...and its a very boring world without these types of people and they deserve far more respect.

oh, absolutamente, as long as folks don't lose sight of what's what and who's who

Lou Figueroa

 

[marek]

This thread is both informative and entertaining. To me both Mosconi and Fats were important figures and while I prefer the way of champion Mosconi went it is quite clear that Fats was way more likeable as a person. So I would say that to compare those two is similar to comparing Arnold Swarzenegger and Tom Hanks as actors - both succesful yet totally different. Can you compare them? Sure! Does it make any sense? Hardly any in my opinion apart from this thread being source of information about those two

 

[Bob Jewett]

His most successful show, Celebrity Billiards was produced in Hollywood and included 39.5 hours of completed tapings. It was syndicated in 70 markets across the country, with Channel 2 KTVI (ABC) in St. Louis as it's premier station.

Within 2 weeks of the show launch it was rated the #1 sport/game related show in the NY market and #3 in L.A.

The show featured Bill Cosby, Milton Berle, Buddy Hackett, George Burns, Mickey Rooney, Zsa Zsa Gabor, Steve Allen, James Garner, Phyllis Diller, Frankie Avalon, Groucho Marx, The Smothers Brothers, Carl Reiner, Red Buttons and more.
...
The movie, "The Player" was worst than the "Baltimore Bullet." No one saw it.

Lots of people saw it, I have proof. But even if they didn't, it doesn't matter. He still did it.
...
I only know of one book Fats' authored ...
...
...

So I went looking for Celebrity Billiards on the interwebz. It turns out that VCI Entertainment released a single DVD in 2013 with some episodes on it. They seem to no longer sell the DVD. Lots of info is available on the billiardsmovies.com website at http://www.billiardsmovies.com/bill...ame-shows/celebrity-billiards-minnesota-fats/ -- also try clicking through on the link on that page to the movie The Player. It appears that the movie was shown in very, very limited distribution.

I'm pretty sure that Fats did not write any book. He told stories to Tom Fox who wrote a book. I think there's a difference.

 

[pt109]

So I went looking for Celebrity Billiards on the interwebz. It turns out that VCI Entertainment released a single DVD in 2013 with some episodes on it. They seem to no longer sell the DVD. Lots of info is available on the billiardsmovies.com website at http://www.billiardsmovies.com/bill...ame-shows/celebrity-billiards-minnesota-fats/ -- also try clicking through on the link on that page to the movie The Player. It appears that the movie was shown in very, very limited distribution.

I'm pretty sure that Fats did not write any book. He told stories to Tom Fox who wrote a book. I think there's a difference.

I have a couple copies of Fox's book....haven't read it for years....
...but the thing I recall from that book at the front of my mind is that Fats felt the game of
straight pool was ruined when it was moved from 10-footers to 9-footers.

 

[Mr. Bond]

I suggest that back in the day, when pool was front page material for every major newspaper, more people across the country read about Mosconi's exploits *for at least 15 years* than watched a few episodes of Fats' show...

Lou Figueroa

You may very well be right Lou, I dont know. And I think anyone would be hard pressed to absolutely prove any kind of popularity numbers. However, also keep in mind that during Mosconi's rise to fame, the media was in a strange place. He might not have received as much national attention as one might think.

After the great depression, pool was very rarely front page news anymore. The pool industry had crashed to half of what it was, there were too many other sports, wars, and now television and movies. Football, baseball and even bowling were doing quite well while pool just idled until 1961. I can even show you an article from around 1950 titled " Who is this Mosconi kid?" - a direct reflection of the "lack of fame" that Mosconi had garnered with the general public up until then.

Fats at least recognized the value of the new medium - television- and took full advantage of its star power. And it worked. He may not have made tournament headlines, but he got everyone's attention, somehow.

Again, I agree that Mosconi was a better ambassador, I just think that people sometimes underestimate the impact that Fats had with all the " noise " he made.

So I went looking for Celebrity Billiards on the interwebz. It turns out that VCI Entertainment released a single DVD in 2013 with some episodes on it. They seem to no longer sell the DVD. Lots of info is available on the billiardsmovies.com website at http://www.billiardsmovies.com/bill...ame-shows/celebrity-billiards-minnesota-fats/ -- also try clicking through on the link on that page to the movie The Player. It appears that the movie was shown in very, very limited distribution.

I'm pretty sure that Fats did not write any book. He told stories to Tom Fox who wrote a book. I think there's a difference.

Yeah the movie didn't get very far. It got a lot of attention at first, but apparently it stunk so it disappeared pretty quick. And I mean it literally disappeared from the face of the earth.
Many people have been looking for a copy for years to no avail. We are actually offering a reward for any intact copy.
We have a great deal of information about the movie, and all kinds of promotional materials, including the only known footage from the movie, but the film itself is mysteriously missing.

 

[KissedOut]

Channel 2 was the fuzzy station that barely came in, when I lived in SF. I loved pool and think I saw one episode of one of Fats' shows. I doubt his viewership numbers were significant.

I suggest that back in the day, when pool was front page material for every major newspaper, more people across the country read about Mosconi's exploits *for at least 15 years* than watched a few episodes of Fats' show.

The only other point I'd make is that Mosconi also happen to make a movie. I think it was called "The Hustler," for which he was technical adviser and had a brief cameo role. (Since we're picking nits, he was also in a music video: George Thorogood's "Bad to the Bone" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IyhJ69mD7xI) Ironically, if Fats' hadn't appropriated the name of the mythical pool player portrayed by Jackie Gleason in the movie most of us might never have heard of him.

Lou Figueroa

Yup, one guy had talent and ability and accomplishments and the other guy had a decent game, a lot of gab, and a massive dose of opportunism.

But hey, Fats succeeded in firmly cementing the dishonest lying grifter/hustler image and mentality to pool that has served it so well.

 

[Mr. Bond]

But hey, Fats succeeded in firmly cementing the dishonest lying grifter/hustler image and mentality to pool that has served it so well.

That would be Walter Tevis and The Hustler that you are referring to. Fats just followed suit. As did Martin Scorsese, one of the most popular producers in film. Are we mad at Martin for ruining our sport with negative exposure? How about Walter?


Ironically, as obnoxious as Fats could be, people absolutely flocked to see him. Because not only was he hellarious but he was also a nice person. As mentioned before he was an advocate for abused animals. He endlessly supported underprivileged kids and numerous other charities - even on his TV shows- there was a cash donation made during every episode. He supported local businesses and went out of his way to help his friends.

You can say a lot of things about Fatty but a bad guy he was not.

 

[xplor]

Fats brought two games to professional pool , 9 ball and one pocket.

 

[SJDinPHX]

Fats brought two games to professional pool , 9 ball and one pocket.

I would not neccessarilly say that Fats 'brought' those games to pro pool..But he certainly did more than anyone, to make those games and all pool, more noticed by the average man on the street!

 

[pt109]

Yup, one guy had talent and ability and accomplishments and the other guy had a decent game, a lot of gab, and a massive dose of opportunism.

But hey, Fats succeeded in firmly cementing the dishonest lying grifter/hustler image and mentality to pool that has served it so well.

You must really hate watching poker...all those millionaires playing a game that has been
infamous for cheaters, fights, and even murders.
...and you must really hate the major sports with all those convicted criminals.
...and politics, the game that has spawned some of the most evil people in history.

I have met some bad dudes playing pool....I have also met some of the most wonderful
people who are honourable and have good will to their fellow man.

What is not going to help pool is people trying to make it a tame pasttime.....
...Brunswick tried that...you know, the people that gave us name plates and score counters
that take the skin off your knuckles?

This game shows it's best when the players are fiercely competitive....
....like boxers and chess players.