The Mosconi slipstroke

Jon Manning

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Some people cannot admit that they are wrong. They'll do anything, including tarnishing the reputation of great players and contributers in order to save their own fragile egos.

I gotcha, but going to this length? One must conclude that there is another motive than what has been said, do they have a book coming out on Mosconi, claim to be the expert on the subject. If it's just an ego thing... wow! I know the pool world has some fragile egos, but this is another level.

Anyway, thanks for posting the videos it pretty cool see the master run some balls!
 

WildWing

Super Gun Mod
Silver Member
Willie's Stroke Was Paradise

Obviously, Willie did use a slip stroke. You can find it in a few videos. The slip gets a bit shorter over the years. Having seen him play in Atlantic City in the early 80s, the slip got shorter, but was still there.

Now, did you notice the really historical part of the video? Believe this is the Rambow cue with the buttsleeve inlays Willie used to run 526. Can't be sure, as he used a few, but I think this is the one.

All the best,
WW
 
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Straightpool_99

I see dead balls
Silver Member
I'm wondering since if he had a coach if they would have pointed out his elbow drop and slip stroke , My first book was written by him I've watched him on tape games giving lessons not once does he talk about a slip stroke nor do I see him using in his early matches , but camera work is not so good ,,
Never saw a slip in the middle of the handle till I saw it here most Iv seen are from the back of the wrap slipping to the butt ,,


1

I find it very interesting how Mosconis grip is so far forward. I mean the slip is a fairly significant one, not at all minor like Lou is suggesting. Maybe he had something figured out on the stroke that modern players have not yet caught up with. Of course, dropping the elbow would be a very natural thing to do, with a grip postion such as this.

Speaking stricklty from my own experience, I've noticed that my accuracy suffers more when my arm is behind perpendicular, rather than forward of perpendicular as it strikes the cueball, and the slightly forward position seems to be favoured by a lot of good players. Maybe there is something to be gained by experimenting with that a bit.
 

one stroke

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I find it very interesting how Mosconis grip is so far forward. I mean the slip is a fairly significant one, not at all minor like Lou is suggesting. Maybe he had something figured out on the stroke that modern players have not yet caught up with. Of course, dropping the elbow would be a very natural thing to do, with a grip postion such as this.

Speaking stricklty from my own experience, I've noticed that my accuracy suffers more when my arm is behind perpendicular, rather than forward of perpendicular as it strikes the cueball, and the slightly forward position seems to be favoured by a lot of good players. Maybe there is something to be gained by experimenting with that a bit.
Funny you mention the hand forward on the grip Iv been told that's a flaw and Iv tried to correct it but what I have found is if you want big juice on the ball it's better to shoot with the hand farther back but I think u lose accuracy
In straight pool you don't need that added power very often

1
 

PoolBum

Ace in the side.
Silver Member
Some people cannot admit that they are wrong. They'll do anything, including tarnishing the reputation of great players and contributers in order to save their own fragile egos. Believe it or not, but if you stick to your story long enough and with great conviction, you can actually convert people to your viewpoint, no matter how propsterous it may be, even when direct video evidence exists to disprove the opinion they are holding. I bet, right now, there are at least a dozen Az'ers who are questioning their eyes...I'm sure at least one poster could educate us on the mechanisms at work here...

Here is a good place to start if you're interested in this sort of thing:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minority_influence

You might like this short TED talk by Julia Galef, "Why you think you're right - even if you're wrong":

https://www.ted.com/talks/julia_galef_why_you_think_you_re_right_even_if_you_re_wrong
 

GoldenFlash

Banned
Mosconi video

I been watching the one when he "had black hair" doing the railroad shot.
Does anyone else notice that when he completes his stroke, that his shooting hand has rotated and the knuckles are facing upward. And there seems to be a sideways twist in the cue?
Maybe I'm just seeing things, but that's what it looks like to me. (after all I am merely an old, worn out, APA-3...what do I know?)
Any comments please?......................................(regarding the stroke, not regarding me.)
 
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Quesports

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Once again, no disrespect, but John also said he said he bent banks by a lot. But, on an honest proposition by Dr. Dave, could not get the cash.

Lou Figueroa

No disrespect here either. When YOU can beat John Brumback at banks I might believe you, till then probably not.
 

Neil

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I find it very interesting how Mosconis grip is so far forward. I mean the slip is a fairly significant one, not at all minor like Lou is suggesting. Maybe he had something figured out on the stroke that modern players have not yet caught up with. Of course, dropping the elbow would be a very natural thing to do, with a grip postion such as this.

Speaking stricklty from my own experience, I've noticed that my accuracy suffers more when my arm is behind perpendicular, rather than forward of perpendicular as it strikes the cueball, and the slightly forward position seems to be favoured by a lot of good players. Maybe there is something to be gained by experimenting with that a bit.

Well, for what it's worth, he is my take on it. It may be correct, it may be out in left field. But, I watched your first clip (actually the whole video) and wherever he shot I had it full screen and .5-.25 speed.

In Willies little red book, he states to grip the cue about a handswidth behind the balance point. (subject for a different matter) Watch where he is actually gripping the cue...at or very near the balance point. I believe that he just like carrying the cue at the balance point. That would enable him to move around the table with a almost non-existent grip on the cue and thereby help enable him to stay loose at all times.

When he got down on the shot, he is still holding the cue at that point on most shots I watched. And continues to hold it there for his warmup strokes. Notice his warmup strokes only go back to where his arm is perpendicular to the floor.

On his final warmup, he does a little pause at the cb, ensuring his tip is going to hit the cb exactly where he wants it to, then he lets his back hand slip back to the same spot his warmup strokes ended at. At that point, he adds a slight amount of tension to his grip to enable the cue to ride with his hand the rest of the way back. Notice the tip stays right at the cb until his grip tightens to bring the cue back.

At that point, he then comes back further than his warmup strokes, and then propels the cue forward with a very loose grip. (You can see his hand opening up) I noticed his elbow barely moved until he made contact with the cb. (thereby enabling the cue to come back to contact exactly where it was just before his final pullback stroke) Just slightly after contact, his elbow drops along with his followthrough.

Does the slipstroke add anything to the stroke? I don't believe it does one iota.(and the science of the stroke says it doesn't) I think it is nothing more than he liked to hold the cue at or near the balance point.
 

anbukev

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Well, for what it's worth, he is my take on it. It may be correct, it may be out in left field. But, I watched your first clip (actually the whole video) and wherever he shot I had it full screen and .5-.25 speed.

In Willies little red book, he states to grip the cue about a handswidth behind the balance point. (subject for a different matter) Watch where he is actually gripping the cue...at or very near the balance point. I believe that he just like carrying the cue at the balance point. That would enable him to move around the table with a almost non-existent grip on the cue and thereby help enable him to stay loose at all times.

When he got down on the shot, he is still holding the cue at that point on most shots I watched. And continues to hold it there for his warmup strokes. Notice his warmup strokes only go back to where his arm is perpendicular to the floor.

On his final warmup, he does a little pause at the cb, ensuring his tip is going to hit the cb exactly where he wants it to, then he lets his back hand slip back to the same spot his warmup strokes ended at. At that point, he adds a slight amount of tension to his grip to enable the cue to ride with his hand the rest of the way back. Notice the tip stays right at the cb until his grip tightens to bring the cue back.

At that point, he then comes back further than his warmup strokes, and then propels the cue forward with a very loose grip. (You can see his hand opening up) I noticed his elbow barely moved until he made contact with the cb. (thereby enabling the cue to come back to contact exactly where it was just before his final pullback stroke) Just slightly after contact, his elbow drops along with his followthrough.

Does the slipstroke add anything to the stroke? I don't believe it does one iota.(and the science of the stroke says it doesn't) I think it is nothing more than he liked to hold the cue at or near the balance point.

In this video he talks about where you should grip the cue at the 06:05 mark.

https://youtu.be/4Ur8yIFhBy8
 

AtLarge

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
I been watching the one when he "had black hair" doing the railroad shot.
Does anyone else notice that when he completes his stroke, that his shooting hand has rotated and the knuckles are facing upward. And there seems to be a sideways twist in the cue?
Maybe I'm just seeing things, but that's what it looks like to me. (after all I am merely an old, worn out, APA-3...what do I know?)
Any comments please?......................................(regarding the stroke, not regarding me.)

Looks to me like a little dynamic back-hand english, also called back-hand swoop or a swoop stroke. He's applying left-hand english to the cue ball by moving his back hand to his right (and, therefore, the cue tip to his left) during the forward stroke.
 

HawaiianEye

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Wow! I've been a lurker here for many years and just recently started posting. This thread is one of the most unbelievable things I have ever read! I mean the deniers are so convinced it has me second guessing what I've seen... then I just watch the videos again.
What is this vested interest in denying that Mosconi had a slip stroke? I don't get it.

Because Lou said it.

If Lou says something, it is always right.

He was a PAO before.

PAOs stories matter.
 

Jon Manning

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Because Lou said it.

If Lou says something, it is always right.

He was a PAO before.

PAOs stories matter.

LOL, well... that is the explanation I've been searching for, even longing for! I am now fulfilled.
Thanks for clearing it up, sounds like The Man is above reproach. That being the case, preach on, oh wise and great master. Forgive us mere mortals for looking at the evidence and forming an opinion.
 
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lfigueroa

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
At least he knows what a slipstroke looks like. But I'm not a fan of the way he f..ed the forum over and got away with it.


And I know what a slip stroke looks like too. Some of the old-timers that hung around The Palace and Cochran's in San Francisco used it on every shot. But on the four or so occasions I saw Mosconi he was not using a slip stroke.

Lou Figueroa
so there
 

lfigueroa

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Wow! I've been a lurker here for many years and just recently started posting. This thread is one of the most unbelievable things I have ever read! I mean the deniers are so convinced it has me second guessing what I've seen... then I just watch the videos again.
What is this vested interest in denying that Mosconi had a slip stroke? I don't get it.


Then let me ask you: if "Mosconi had a slip stroke" why aren't there dozens of shots on the available video? Why are there only two or three instances? If I shoot two or three shots left handed during a match does that mean you'd say,"Lou is a left handed player."

Lou Figueroa
 

lfigueroa

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Some people cannot admit that they are wrong. They'll do anything, including tarnishing the reputation of great players and contributers in order to save their own fragile egos. Believe it or not, but if you stick to your story long enough and with great conviction, you can actually convert people to your viewpoint, no matter how propsterous it may be, even when direct video evidence exists to disprove the opinion they are holding. I bet, right now, there are at least a dozen Az'ers who are questioning their eyes...I'm sure at least one poster could educate us on the mechanisms at work here...

Here is a good place to start if you're interested in this sort of thing:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minority_influence


And some guys will attempt to tarnish the reputation of honorable people and their military service in order to save their own fragile egos ;-)

Lou Figueroa
 

lfigueroa

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I find it very interesting how Mosconis grip is so far forward. I mean the slip is a fairly significant one, not at all minor like Lou is suggesting. Maybe he had something figured out on the stroke that modern players have not yet caught up with. Of course, dropping the elbow would be a very natural thing to do, with a grip postion such as this.

Speaking stricklty from my own experience, I've noticed that my accuracy suffers more when my arm is behind perpendicular, rather than forward of perpendicular as it strikes the cueball, and the slightly forward position seems to be favoured by a lot of good players. Maybe there is something to be gained by experimenting with that a bit.


Fairly significant? If his wrap is a standard 12" and his hand is not right where it meets the wood -- so perhaps 2" back -- and he moves his grip back with a couple of inches of the wrap still visible, that would be like a 4" inch slip back if you figure 4" for the width of his hand. That's not significant at all when compared to what guys like Cowboy Jimmy Moore was doing.

Lou Figueroa
 
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lfigueroa

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
LOL, well... that is the explanation I've been searching for, even longing for! I am now fulfilled.
Thanks for clearing it up, sounds like The Man is above reproach. That being the case, preach on, oh wise and great master. Forgive us mere mortals for looking at the evidence and forming an opinion.


And some guys will attempt to tarnish the reputation of honorable people and their military service in order to save their own fragile egos ;-)

Lou Figueroa
 
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