Can someone post a picture of what it looks like? And is it something to worry about?
Grain run out on a shaft
- Thread starter skankhammer
- Start date
There was a good AZ thread on this....but it was a victim of Photobucket's retroactive
policies....
Here's some from the music industry...
http://www.lutherie.net/frankford.runout.html
policies....
Here's some from the music industry...
http://www.lutherie.net/frankford.runout.html
Thank you for the reply, and the picture. I've heard the term for several years but was not exactly sure what it looks like. Is it just cosmetic, or does it affect playability?
You know how some things , like a little flag on a piece of chalk can get blown out of proportion. I'm wondering if it's something that really makes a difference.
You know how some things , like a little flag on a piece of chalk can get blown out of proportion. I'm wondering if it's something that really makes a difference.
I was raised in the country.....grain runout on an axe handle was a problem.
....I'm sure baseball bats wouldn't fare so well either.
Cues take a different kind of stress....although I have seen two forearms on expensive
cues break easily 'cause the guy stumbled and trapped it against the table...
...I'm thinking grain runout.
That's just abuse imo .
The forearm might have been cored too, so the outside doesn't mean much.
These were Gauthier snooker cues...the same guy broke both...no intentional abuse...
...he was in his middle 70s and would lose his balance sometimes...
...the break was at about a 90 degree angle.
the thread I mentioned earlier, you and Qbuilder had a lot of good info...
....but all the pics are being held ransom by PB...the bastards.
There was a good AZ thread on this....but it was a victim of Photobucket's retroactive
policies....
Here's some from the music industry...
View attachment 470847
View attachment 470848
http://www.lutherie.net/frankford.runout.html
That is some good info, well presented, nice post! I can't give you rep because of the pass it around message, but consider yourself repped.
Sorry, thinking something else..
The vast majority of cue makers confuse growth lines for grain. We even call them grain lines. We sight down the shaft to see if the grain lines run straight from joint to tip, or if they RUN OFF of the side before they get there. We think straight grain is good, and run off is bad. While that sentiment is true, the vast majority of us are wrong in believing growth lines represent grain straightness. We're looking left when we should be looking right.
Perpendicular to the growth lines is the real grain structure. I call it PG, perpendicular growth. As one of the links posted earlier shows, a visually straight growth line piece of wood was split to reveal severe grain run off. Wood does not crack or split along growth lines. It does so across them, exactly perpendicular to the growth lines. Just so happens, that's also the way they generally warp. This is why so many cue makers have apparently straight growth line shafts that warp. We often blame it on internal stress, which is sometimes correct, but generally it's because of PG run off. The problem with maple is that the grain is so fine & compact, it is all but impossible to see PG run off without testing. Most of the testing is invasive and would ruin or destroy a finished shaft, hence the split wood in the link, so testing a completed cue isn't necessarily an option.
The best thing a cue maker can do is begin with straight PG wood. However, virtually all makers buy shaft blanks in square or dowel form, minus a few who begin with lumber or a couple of us who actually have saw mills. So 99%+ are at the mercy of their blank source, and if the sawmill operator isn't aware of or gives credence to PG, then none of the cue makers are going to get true straight grain wood all of the time. They'll get it some of the time just by default, odds, but it won't be nearly all the time. In fact, since the makers demand straight growth line wood so much, that's what the suppliers focus on. PG straightness is not only something cue makers do not demand from their suppliers, it's something they aren't even aware of or know how to test for.
That's it in a nutshell. Simply put, what cue makers call straight grain is not truly straight grain in a technical sense. It's only growth lines arranged parallel to the work piece, and has zero to do with actual grain straightness. To answer your question, yes grain run off is indeed critical. It matters. But do not confuse grain run off with growth line run off. Totally different things. If a shaft is straight and hits good, don't pay any attention to the orientation of the growth lines. The one exception is high end cues. IMO, a high end cue should have not only straight grain wood for structural quality, it should also have straight growth line wood for aesthetic quality. Otherwise, judge the shaft by how it performs, not how it looks.
Perpendicular to the growth lines is the real grain structure. I call it PG, perpendicular growth. As one of the links posted earlier shows, a visually straight growth line piece of wood was split to reveal severe grain run off. Wood does not crack or split along growth lines. It does so across them, exactly perpendicular to the growth lines. Just so happens, that's also the way they generally warp. This is why so many cue makers have apparently straight growth line shafts that warp. We often blame it on internal stress, which is sometimes correct, but generally it's because of PG run off. The problem with maple is that the grain is so fine & compact, it is all but impossible to see PG run off without testing. Most of the testing is invasive and would ruin or destroy a finished shaft, hence the split wood in the link, so testing a completed cue isn't necessarily an option.
The best thing a cue maker can do is begin with straight PG wood. However, virtually all makers buy shaft blanks in square or dowel form, minus a few who begin with lumber or a couple of us who actually have saw mills. So 99%+ are at the mercy of their blank source, and if the sawmill operator isn't aware of or gives credence to PG, then none of the cue makers are going to get true straight grain wood all of the time. They'll get it some of the time just by default, odds, but it won't be nearly all the time. In fact, since the makers demand straight growth line wood so much, that's what the suppliers focus on. PG straightness is not only something cue makers do not demand from their suppliers, it's something they aren't even aware of or know how to test for.
That's it in a nutshell. Simply put, what cue makers call straight grain is not truly straight grain in a technical sense. It's only growth lines arranged parallel to the work piece, and has zero to do with actual grain straightness. To answer your question, yes grain run off is indeed critical. It matters. But do not confuse grain run off with growth line run off. Totally different things. If a shaft is straight and hits good, don't pay any attention to the orientation of the growth lines. The one exception is high end cues. IMO, a high end cue should have not only straight grain wood for structural quality, it should also have straight growth line wood for aesthetic quality. Otherwise, judge the shaft by how it performs, not how it looks.
I haven't seen the 1st picture of a shaft, with or without 'grain runout'!
I'm blaming it on PhotoBucket...thousands of pictures are being held for ransom.
i agree with you!
I have owned 2 Joss (32 Years Old), 2 Gus (25 YO), 2 Barry (11 YO), 2 South West (20 YO), 4 Schick (20 YO), and 4 Showman (17-20 YO) shafts. All are/were straight and all of them looked and played great. Were those cuemakers aware how to select not only for straight grain PG as well as straight growth lines? Was quality wood sourcing better in those days? Was I just lucky in the cues I bought?
Great discussion, BTW.
Man if you only knew how interesting that question is, as you laid it out with the examples you gave. I have no idea about the deceased, but with the limited personal conversation time I have with the others (some much more than others), I would say John Showman knows exactly what I am talking about, and likely none of the others. John & I have been discussing shaft maple for many, many years. Very few makers are as curious and detail oriented as he.
Cue makers old and new across the board do something unique, except for Stroud(JW). They buy in bulk and cut gradually over time, letting the wood sit dormant for months or years between cuts. This time does nothing to enhance the wood. What it does is reveal the junk wood. By the time a shaft reaches size, it will have either stayed straight & stable or it will have been trouble. Responsible makers like you named throw the trouble wood away & only use the stable stuff. Stroud on the other hand used a supplier who knows wood, and who chooses logs and mills them specifically for the purpose of shafts. His wood is generally fine enough that Stroud could take a square & cut it down to a 13mm shaft in a matter of a day or two, and trust that it would stay straight indefinitely. At least two of the other names you mentioned also used that supplier, though they still allow dormant time between cuts.
Those guys were making cues in a time when shaft blanks cost a dollar or two. Schick probably remembers when they cost less than a dollar. They could afford to buy hundreds or thousands at a time, literally buy a lifetime supply at one time. Today the same 30"x1" blank would cost between $10-$20, a bit prohibitive for most makers to buy in such large quantity. The process of making the shaft hasn't changed, and honestly I believe the quality of the wood hasn't changed. Maple is maple. Old timers knew that some wood moves while other wood doesn't, and it had nothing to do with aesthetics. That's why they "rest" the wood between cuts. Time would reveal the flaws. The cues you got came from guys who were/are masters of the craft & care about quality. If the shafts were going to warp, they wanted them to do so in the shop, not in your case.
That's actually a good picture.There was a good AZ thread on this....but it was a victim of Photobucket's retroactive
policies....
Here's some from the music industry...
View attachment 470848
http://www.lutherie.net/frankford.runout.html
Funny thing about tracing the grain is that what you see outside along the dowel is often misleading .
You have to look at the faces of the dowel to pick your centers/offset when cutting the dowels to cones .
Pretty tough to explain really. I'd have to show you my toolpost mounted router than drill the centers of my dowels. The dowels look funny when offset center holes are drilled. But, once they become tapered oversized shafts, you can look at the grains and it will dawn on you why offsetting was done.
The whole process was shared to me by Sherm Adamson and Edwin Reyes. I used the router on my own. They used ice pick. I kid you not. Worked real well for them. I use the router for drilling the offset holes if needed and a slot for the turning spur . Makes roughing a lot easier .
Thanx to you and Eric....I know a lot more...enough to leave it to the experts.
My father was in the lumber biz...and an expert grader....I didn't learn much.
It's people like you is why I've bought a lot of cues in my life...
...you guys are artisans with a wealth of knowledge.
regards
pt
