When is english necessary?
- Thread starter Positively Ralf
- Start date
i am not an instructor but want to say
GREAT POST FRAN...:thumbup:
Hey thanks --- I do want to make clear, though, that by 'satisfactory,' I don't mean in the correct vs. incorrect sense. I mean a satisfactory angle for executing a shot with stun, top spin or back spin.
Some players prefer to use side spin and feel more comfortable intentionally setting up angles that require it. It doesn't mean they're worse players for doing it. It's just their style. In fact, they may be better at shooting shots with side spin than without because that's their comfort zone.
Don't believe Efren Reyes when he says he likes to play near the vertical axis. He's joking with you. You can take that to the bank.
This seems overly simplistic to me, as it either ignores acceleration/deceleration, or conflates them with speed.
KissedOut...It is neither "overly simplistic", nor ignores acceleration (we never want to decelerate the cuestick). Speed is the velocity of the cuestick forward.
Perhaps someday I'll get a chance to show you this one-on-one. That way you would understand it perfectly.
Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com
Perhaps someday I'll get a chance to show you this one-on-one. That way you would understand it perfectly.
Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com
The acceleration or deceleration of the cue stick at contact has almost zero effect on the shot. It is the speed of the stick at contact that is important.
But...
Beginners often have a problem with decelerating the stick prior to actually contacting the cue ball. The resulting ineffective shot is due to the reduced speed rather than the fact that the cue stick was slowing at impact. Beginners are often advised to "accelerate the stick through the ball". A more accurate way to describe the required efficient action is "don't start stopping the stroke before contact" or "try to hit the ball at peak cue speed."
So we're clear--the diagram posted was to show the difference in angle of approach when striking at the same location.
As for my claim to get good english closer to center than with parallel and other methods--I'm not sure I follow you on the ccb "look". I'm not arguing with you--I just want more clarification, because some players let their head float to move the same distance as their parallel cue stick.
And a simple way to demonstrate I'm close to center is to begin with the bridge hand pointed at center cue ball, then tighten the loop of the bridge to disallow striking several tips off center.
Thanks for explaining, rather than condescending.
i am sorry i havent read all of your posts since its late for me and just finishing dinner
but '
your diagram of the pivot
since the FORWARD vector has changed why do you think you will hit the same spot
on the object ball as the parrallel
Correct!
I am refuting those who say it provides the same spin on the cue ball as well.
Beg your pardon. Looked at this post again and I get your point. Angled cue for a pivot equals movement of true center cue ball to force the shot to be a straight shot taken with offset english. I understand.
However, we're still talking about a diagonal cue turned through the bridge hand with most stroke momentum delivered forward and the difference between a center cue tip striking at a zero-degree angle through cue ball point A and and left-edge cue tip striking obliquely through A. Adjusting center cue ball is not an equal trade (the pivoted cue is not pivoted enough to balance the ccb movement to negate the difference in spin).
dah dum cha!
Another difference--I don't think it's been addressed online by anyone--right english pivot uses the left side of the tip--parallel right english aims to hit center cue tip and a miscue can bring in the right side of the tip as well.
Sorry, but that doesn't not make sense. If the cue stick is parallel to center and over to the right for a parallel english hit, the left side of the cue tip is the part that hits the cue ball. I've seen the pivots, both FHE and BHE, I will stick to parallel. The swerve and deflection are the same, just happen in different places. The advantages to parallel is that the pool shooter can take his same back swing without moving the butt out or in from his normal path. Why would someone want to change that?
You are correct on a perfect stroke. A perfectly straight cue stick angle of approach will strike the left side of the cue tip. Any veer off line, however, will play havoc. What I wrote was "parallel right english AIMS to hit center cue tip [the feel of the stroke, direction of the stroke, then a left side tip is hit a glancing blow, not willfully] and a MISCUE can bring in the right side of the tip as well [almost impossible to hit right side tip on a pivot or backhand shot]".
Why not parallel indeed? You are not moving the cue ball as efficiently and needing to adjust more so that with a different angle of approach from the stick. Consider also that the bridge hand is in a different place, bringing more of the cue stick mass to be aligned with the center of cue ball mass.
However, I find that players who've tried backhand english are attempting to strike too far off center cue ball to be effective, comfortable, avoiding miscues and etc. Start with tiny increments of english.
I can recommended tests to do and shots to work for yourself. Send me a PM. Again, I am saying that you can come to a sound place of english that some pro friends use with less adjustment for squirt and curve.
Why not parallel indeed? You are not moving the cue ball as efficiently and needing to adjust more so that with a different angle of approach from the stick. Consider also that the bridge hand is in a different place, bringing more of the cue stick mass to be aligned with the center of cue ball mass.
However, I find that players who've tried backhand english are attempting to strike too far off center cue ball to be effective, comfortable, avoiding miscues and etc. Start with tiny increments of english.
I can recommended tests to do and shots to work for yourself. Send me a PM. Again, I am saying that you can come to a sound place of english that some pro friends use with less adjustment for squirt and curve.
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Photos of exaggerated english to show mass/momentum of stick:
Parallel:
Backhand:
Parallel:
Backhand:
My pretty hand. I know I'm near miscue distance but it was exaggerated for effect. The mass of the cue/direction is nearer center mass of the cue ball with pivot than parallel.
to me its just the opposite of your statement above
with parrallel the cue stick is going forward thru more mass of the cue ball
with pivot (backhand) the cuestick is "swiping" across the cueball and thru less mass not more....
Consider that the goal is not just to drive the cue ball away from the shooter, which both shots do, but to create outstanding spin on the ball (since forward momentum fights with rotational momentum). On a draw stroke, too hard a forward stroke (forward momentum) overcomes the rotational momentum (backspin).
Photo 2: Swiping a globe of the Earth a glancing blow sideways, spins the globe.
Photo 1: Smacking a globe more head-on may make the globe, and the stand it rests, on fall over.
However, regarding your question and mass, I didn't write "more ball mass" but "closer to cue ball center mass", that is, absolute center or the pit of the cue ball peach, the seeds of the cue ball apple inside the skin.
You see, for many shots at many angles, it is ideal to strike as close as possible to cue ball center, more specifically (ignoring degree of cut) the cue ball center as facing the object ball dead straight on. Call it the cue ball magic spot. If I have to move to an awkward body position due to rail or cutting a nearby ball thinly or "backwards" without english, I try to bring my cue stick on an angle such that it cuts through the magic spot. Set up an awkward cut and try my technique to see if it helps.
Photo 2: The thrust of the cue stick is coming from a bridge aimed through the magic spot/absolute center cue ball. Forward momentum is great, with a slight amount of cue speed devoted to the off-center english direction. The ball is struck in the same spot with the same tip section as in Photo 1, but from a different angle.
Photo 1: The player sets up their bridge and the entire length/mass of the cue stick to pop the cue ball on a non-traditional axis. There will be some squirt going opposite the curve (pushing the ball right while trying to apply left english). Every player using parallel has to adjust consciously or subconsciously their shots. For this reason, PJ and others have even called parallel english not english at all.
Photo 2: Swiping a globe of the Earth a glancing blow sideways, spins the globe.
Photo 1: Smacking a globe more head-on may make the globe, and the stand it rests, on fall over.
However, regarding your question and mass, I didn't write "more ball mass" but "closer to cue ball center mass", that is, absolute center or the pit of the cue ball peach, the seeds of the cue ball apple inside the skin.
You see, for many shots at many angles, it is ideal to strike as close as possible to cue ball center, more specifically (ignoring degree of cut) the cue ball center as facing the object ball dead straight on. Call it the cue ball magic spot. If I have to move to an awkward body position due to rail or cutting a nearby ball thinly or "backwards" without english, I try to bring my cue stick on an angle such that it cuts through the magic spot. Set up an awkward cut and try my technique to see if it helps.
Photo 2: The thrust of the cue stick is coming from a bridge aimed through the magic spot/absolute center cue ball. Forward momentum is great, with a slight amount of cue speed devoted to the off-center english direction. The ball is struck in the same spot with the same tip section as in Photo 1, but from a different angle.
Photo 1: The player sets up their bridge and the entire length/mass of the cue stick to pop the cue ball on a non-traditional axis. There will be some squirt going opposite the curve (pushing the ball right while trying to apply left english). Every player using parallel has to adjust consciously or subconsciously their shots. For this reason, PJ and others have even called parallel english not english at all.
Lots of words of that don't make much sense in this thread.
I cringe every time I hear someone use the phrase "parallel english". I understand that this is a method of employing english that many people use but the term is misleading. Bottom line is -- there's only one angle of attack that the cue can be on when using english. How you get to this angle is up to the user. If you don't believe this is true, and you use parallel english, observe what happens when you use a bridge.
All roads lead to Rome when it comes to english.
The pro method of employing english doesn't exist and if you run into an instructor telling you otherwise, you may want to consider finding a different instructor.
Now here comes the "let me clarify" post.
I cringe every time I hear someone use the phrase "parallel english". I understand that this is a method of employing english that many people use but the term is misleading. Bottom line is -- there's only one angle of attack that the cue can be on when using english. How you get to this angle is up to the user. If you don't believe this is true, and you use parallel english, observe what happens when you use a bridge.
All roads lead to Rome when it comes to english.
The pro method of employing english doesn't exist and if you run into an instructor telling you otherwise, you may want to consider finding a different instructor.
Now here comes the "let me clarify" post.