I know 14.1 has never been about records

[Positively Ralf]

But I've always wondered, did anyone many decades ago ever keep records of who had ran the most centuries in competitive 14.1?

I remember reading a while back here or on the Facebook group, that the average run in pro competitive 14.1 is something like 65.

 

[Bob Jewett]

I'm not sure what your title means. Do you think that Greenleaf was not proud of his records? Or do you think that records were not promoted?

 

[sjm]

Then and now, the record that really mattered was won-loss record and greatness was and is measured in titles.

The one stat I heard straight from Charlie Ursitti was that of all the players, Mosconi was the most likely to run a game out on the first inning, but he added that Greenleaf was slightly more likely than Mosconi to win a game in two innings or less.

 

[Cameron Smith]

Then and now, the record that really mattered was won-loss record and greatness was and is measured in titles.

The one stat I heard straight from Charlie Ursitti was that of all the players, Mosconi was the most likely to run a game out on the first inning, but he added that Greenleaf was slightly more likely than Mosconi to win a game in two innings or less.

I feel like that second metric is possibly even more important. In snooker, the stat that really shows the divide between the players is the frequency of 50+ and 70+ breaks. Similarly, I think in straight pool the most important stat would likely be the frequency of 50-70 ball runs. I think this would more accurately reflect who is the best at turning chances into scoring opportunities.

I don’t know what this stat would look like for 14.1, but in snooker Neil Robertson rates almost ahead of Ronnie O’Sullivan, in century break frequency but well behind him in 50+ and 70+ break frequency.

 

[Bob Jewett]

...I think in straight pool the most important stat would likely be the frequency of 50-70 ball runs. I think this would more accurately reflect who is the best at turning chances into scoring opportunities.
...

The stand-in for that is BPI which was reported for most 14.1 tournaments at one time. Unfortunately, safety play pollutes those numbers.

 

[Cameron Smith]

The stand-in for that is BPI which was reported for most 14.1 tournaments at one time. Unfortunately, safety play pollutes those numbers.

I’d love to one day take those PDFs of the World 14.1 championships and get that data into excel. We could see who had the most 100s, the highest average high run per match, the widest point spread etc.

Sadly I don’t think we could determine the 50+ rate because you could theoretically have multiple 50s in a match and it wouldn’t be recorded. But we could get an 80+ frequency since you can’t have town 80s in a 125 and 150 point game.

The other thing I’d love to chart is the high runs over the the years and see what impact the 9 foot table had on high runs. I know it’s significant, but I’d like to see it visualized.

 

[Positively Ralf]

I'm not sure what your title means. Do you think that Greenleaf was not proud of his records? Or do you think that records were not promoted?

I'm talking more about tournament runs, akin how they do in snooker.

 

[alphadog]

They are 2 different games. In Snooker there is a total that can't be equalled without a snooker (or multiple snookers)so once that score is achieved there is no risk in continuing a run with a risky shot. In 14.1 failing to complete a risky shot can lead to a loss no matter how far it is to the finish line. One other thing is the crowds for snooker appreciate and cheer for the centuries and 147s.

Remember when Johnny Archer won the 14
1 trnmnt and the crowd demanded he continue the run? That would of been considered poor sport back when 14.1 was front and center.

Some claim safety play in 14.1 is not as good now as it used to be. The players IMHO are more offensive minded so they are more apt to shoot rather then engaging in safety play.

 

[Cameron Smith]

But I've always wondered, did anyone many decades ago ever keep records of who had ran the most centuries in competitive 14.1?

I remember reading a while back here or on the Facebook group, that the average run in pro competitive 14.1 is something like 65.

You can records of world and national 14.1 championships here,

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I’m not aware of any site or person who has aggregated this data. But if you were to spend time copying it all into Excel, you’d be able to get some good data.

The average run is definitely not 65. This probably comes from the recent world record attempts on 5” pockets and template racks. Atlarge has posted stats on many 14.1 tournaments and he has included averages that exclude safety innings. I would say the average is a lot closer to 30-35 balls per attempted scoring inning.

 

[Bob Jewett]

I'm talking more about tournament runs, akin how they do in snooker.

Back when they posted tournament statistics, they often gave the high run for each player in each match.

 

[Positively Ralf]

Back when they posted tournament statistics, they often gave the high run for each player in each match.

But were any records kept of career runs of 100 for each player? Which player holds the record for most 150 and out runs? Guess that's what I'm really asking.

 

[Cameron Smith]

But were any records kept of career runs of 100 for each player? Which player holds the record for most 150 and out runs? Guess that's what I'm really asking.

The link I posted above is as close as you will get. The data you are looking for is there for the major tournaments but it’s not compiled in any way and I’m pretty sure no one else has done so and released it publicly.

 

[Bob Jewett]

The link I posted above is as close as you will get. The data you are looking for is there for the major tournaments but it’s not compiled in any way and I’m pretty sure no one else has done so and released it publicly.

The only study I know of is when I extracted all of Mosconi's World Championships.

 

[justnum]

I talked with Pat Fleming about the amount of book keeping and record preserving for 14.1, he says it is a lot.

The benefit of stats is give an idea of what is a reasonable expectation versus witnessing a once in a lifetime record setting runout.

If 14.1 were to be rebranded, Strickland suggests offense only games.

Even if a simulated 14.1 pool tournament took place there are few to no advantages in collecting statistics.

14.1 is better suited for general problem solving in billiards. It is rare any two players will play the runout or break the same.

There are some threads about solving 3 ball table leaves. The discussion focused on identifying opportunistic position and angles.

It makes for a great math problem. There are clear solution sets and many that are not. What does it take for a player to realize those differences?

 

[AtLarge]

,,, The average run is definitely not 65. This probably comes from the recent world record attempts on 5” pockets and template racks. Atlarge has posted stats on many 14.1 tournaments and he has included averages that exclude safety innings. I would say the average is a lot closer to 30-35 balls per attempted scoring inning.

The most recent 14.1 event for which I posted stats was the 2022 American Straight Pool Championship last October. I tracked 14 of the round-robin matches and 7 of the single-elimination matches. The points (balls) per attempted scoring inning (i.e., not counting safeties or intentional fouls) for those 21 matches combined was 23.7. The number of runs of 50 or more balls was 33 in 186 attempted scoring innings, or about 18% of the attempts. Of course the "out" run in each match was unfinished by virtue of the game ending.* Nine of the "out" runs were 50 or more points, so 12 of the "out" runs might have reached 50 points if the game had not ended. So if we deduct the 12 unfinished runs of less than 50 points from the 186 attempted scoring innings, we get 33 runs of 50 or more balls on 174 attempted scoring innings, or about 19% of the attempts.

* Players who reached game points on a run of at least 100 were allowed to continue the run to try for bonus money.​

Here is the thread on the single-elimination matches: https://forums.azbilliards.com/thre...p-single-elimination-matches-oct-2022.547770/

and the round-robin matches: https://forums.azbilliards.com/thre...pionship-round-robin-matches-oct-2022.547714/

 

[Cameron Smith]

The most recent 14.1 event for which I posted stats was the 2022 American Straight Pool Championship last October. I tracked 14 of the round-robin matches and 7 of the single-elimination matches. The points (balls) per attempted scoring inning (i.e., not counting safeties or intentional fouls) for those 21 matches combined was 23.7. The number of runs of 50 or more balls was 33 in 186 attempted scoring innings, or about 18% of the attempts. Of course the "out" run in each match was unfinished by virtue of the game ending.* Nine of the "out" runs were 50 or more points, so 12 of the "out" runs might have reached 50 points if the game had not ended. So if we deduct the 12 unfinished runs of less than 50 points from the 186 attempted scoring innings, we get 33 runs of 50 or more balls on 174 attempted scoring innings, or about 19% of the attempts.

* Players who reached game points on a run of at least 100 were allowed to continue the run to try for bonus money.​

Here is the thread on the single-elimination matches: https://forums.azbilliards.com/thre...p-single-elimination-matches-oct-2022.547770/

and the round-robin matches: https://forums.azbilliards.com/thre...pionship-round-robin-matches-oct-2022.547714/

What would be the average for match winners out of curiosity?

The only study I know of is when I extracted all of Mosconi's World Championships.

Do you have that public? I’d love to see!

 

[Bob Jewett]

...


Do you have that public? I’d love to see!

I posted it here. Search on "Mosconi world" under my name, Shouldn't have more than a couple dozen hits.

 

[AtLarge]

What would be the average for match winners out of curiosity?
...

Match winners -- 28.5
Match losers -- 17.9
Total -- 23.7

 

[Cameron Smith]

Match winners -- 28.5
Match losers -- 17.9
Total -- 23.7

Thanks! This makes sense to me and aligns reasonably closely with what I was thinking was required to win at that level.

I remember SJM posting that Irving Crane told him he felt you needed to average 35 balls per attempted inning in order to win a world championship. That doesn’t sound far off.

 

[sjm]

Thanks! This makes sense to me and aligns reasonably closely with what I was thinking was required to win at that level.

I remember SJM posting that Irving Crane told him he felt you needed to average 35 balls per attempted inning in order to win a world championship. That doesn’t sound far off.

Actually, I was quoting Jack Colavita, who opined in the early 1980s that one had to average 35 balls off an open table to compete with the very best (which, at his time, meant Sigel, Varner, Mizerak, Rempe, Margo, Martin, Hopkins and West). As we all know, sometimes even that wasn't enough!