Sportmanship at US Open

What if someone in Gabe's family was diagnosed with a very serious medical condition that is very life threatening? How would you feel for judging him in that case? I'd bet 90% of us would have missed that match that he did if they were going through what he was.

Just sayin

I agree that, yes, more than 90% of us would say "F*** the match", and take care of our personal obligations.

But then how many players would have a personal situation that prevents them from playing a match, TV table or otherwise ? Which ones does the TD say are legitimate reasons or not ?

Just like everything else in life...
For the one instance that a player has to exit a tournament to deal with something as personal and serious as the instance above, there will be 10 guys wanting a pass because they were smoking a cigarette, asleep in thier room, or some other "non-life threatening" reason.
 
Sweeping the balls because he was frustrated and getting trounced? In front of everybody at the country's (possibly the planet's) most prestigious event?

What a great display for his sponsor - LOL. An ambassador for a company? Yea right.

The US Open should look hard at sportmanship for next year.

Bad Boys in sports are always necessary....what Nevel did we see all the time in bar table tournaments, in Amateur Organized Levels, and in all kinds of sports (the bad behaviour).....sometimes we just want to make this sport, more than what it really is.....
 
Will this ever be broadcast on TV?
or any of the filmed matches for that matter?

I am just sorry he ended his run at the US Open in that fashion, but that is for him to reflect on now. (The raking of the table Forfeit)
I watched that video of the shaft breaking, and from what I can tell;
The leather tip caught the rug and surprised the shit out of him. He also looked embarassed on top of already being frustrated with himself.

Exactly the way i saw it and everyone who watched it with me also.
 
It does get embarrassing, and this kind of behavior on a streamed event really makes the pro pool product look bad. Of course, it's common knowledge that many of the players feel no obligation to event producers and promoters. If you have any doubts about that, you need only reread the ABP threads.

Very, very well said and in today's game, a very good point. Entirely have far too much of the old famous "don't you know who I am attitude"!
 
Give the sport 10 Earl Stricklands and toss in a few Nevels ... give me 10 Souquets and toss in a couple Appeltons ... then let's tally up the [viewers] count ... but preach rebuilding, image, blah blah to the sport ... so with a mass audience wanted ballet dancers don't fill seats, character does.

I omitted the name because it's not the person I'm quoting, it's the idea. Another is the oft-slung quote:

Wimpy Lassiter said:
Putting a pool player in a tuxedo is like putting whipped cream on a hot dog.

And to quote another good man:

Window dressing won't work - it never has - it never will.

Those all seem like attacks on throwing a monkey in a suit, and how "blah blah" that whole idea is. But that's the point, isn't it? You can't expect a man (or woman) to be perfect. Top snooker players have thrown cues, sworn, told a TV audience they don't care, etc. It does happen, and it's usually in the heat of an intense moment. I can understand Larry was frustrated, but he could have handled it better. Most of us could. Some are proud to be shaft-killers, others are disgusted. But we're not all the same person, so instead of just saying the first guy I quoted is a nit, how about we do some comparisons now that we know even in snooker the "stuffy Brit's pastime" stupidity does occur.

The "ballet dancers" do fill stands in Europe. Snooker players do make a LOT more money. Billiards players are the same. They wear tuxedos. The audience is knowledgeable and doesn't have to be coached. The commentators don't fight with each other.

In America, you have snapped shafts. You don’t watch, “a rare outburst” it’s common behavior by some of these people to be asinine. But putting an ass in a tux is not going to make them less of an ass, just a better dressed one. It will take more than “window dressing” as David said. Maybe that love of arrogance, of snapping shafts, of being a rebel without a cause is the very reason there’s no money for pool in America.

All you really have to do is look around and see it’s not working to understand that maybe it’s time for a little change. This thread has a lot of good knowledge in it. Before you say, “it’s okay because Larry was mad!”, understand that this is the approach that has been going on for decades and take a good long look at how far it’s gotten pool.

Even though Darren has kicked a table he still called himself on a foul during the Open when no one else saw it. Earl has been quoted as saying he’s happy to cheat and has also had 1 or 2 incidents of poor sportsmanship. Take a look at where both people’s respective country’s sport is in terms of player rewards. Maybe it isn’t just the clothing that’s different.
 
Larry Nevel is one of the nicest guys you will ever meet in this pool level.

I'm proud to say that Larry is a personal friend of mine. I'll never forget years back when a guy from Rockford named Phil came walking into the poolroom and talked me into giving this 17 year old kid a big spot for the cash.

I escaped the trap luckily but became instant friends with Larry nevel. I knew he would be something special in this pool world. And yes we have played some and gambled some over the years. Larry was always a perfect gentleman. I'm sure others would say the same.

Not making excuses for Larry but sometimes it is really hard to control your emotions in pressure situations like the US Open. What makes it even harder is being diabetic. If your blood sugar is too high it magnifies your anxiety to a level that is hard to imagine.

When the blood sugar is too high it is really hard to control your emotions. I've learned over the past 2 years to keep my mouth shut and not react to my thoughts to strongly when I don't feel good. But there is nothing you can do once your in this place with the high blood sugar. You not only have to control the blood sugar but you really have to work hard to control your emotions which at times can be almost mission impossible.

If I had a company I would sponsor Larry in a heart beat. Baseball players snap bats in half over their knees on live TV all the time. Throw helmets and break water coolers in the dugout.

Things happen in the heat of the battle. It's kind of the nature of the beast. Competition............

With emotions on high and being in the final 8 at the US Open, being diabetic is tough.

i can sympathize with him being Diabetic. It has all but forced me to give the game up. In my youth 18 hours was nothing, no big deal, now after even 4-5 hours I am toast. learning to recognize the blood sugar levels takes some years. this may sound hard, but we diabetics use that too much as an excuse.
Just look at Jay Cutler of the Bears. i can't even fathom how he must feel in some of those situations, but it is something we have to recognize and deal with.
A little emotion on the table does not bother me at all. But we have to keep things in perspective. This is no shot at Larry at all, I feel for the guy and know what he goes through. It is even more difficult to explain how one feels.
i wish him well, but would advise him to get a handle on his emotions. I well know it ain't easy. no matter how badly we feel, the game should come first.
idon't however feel he should be ashamed, just be aware and better prepared cause there is no cure on the horizon and he will be there again.
i wish him well!
As the Indians say, "don't be tough on me until you walk one mile in my moccosins"!
 
There are so many examples in sports where people tune into to watch the train wrecks, and whether we like it or not drama is what sells. So in my opinion, fine them if they get out of line but don't sweep them under the rug. We need a little colour. I sincerely hope they still make a DVD out of Nevel's match and when it get's rebroadcasted (they show the US Open on Rogers in Canada) I hope they show it because it will get more interest from viewers than Klatt's 7 rack run and Darren's epic comeback (which was the highlight for me).

While there is some truth in what you say, I think you overlook that pool does not have the kind of viewers that out-of-industry advertisers are targeting. Market research shows that pool attracts low-spending demographic groups. For this reason, I'm of the opinion that focusing on what the current viewer wants isn't good enough for our sport, because pool needs to attract two demographic groups that it continually fails to attract - the wealthy and the young.

Sadly, the affluent often steer clear of the pool scene because of its negative image. Just as sadly, far too may parents dissuade their children from playing pool because of its reputation, and this hurts our sport. That's why incidents like the Nevel incident matter --- because it reinforces the views of those who reject pool as an unrefined sport.

The poker boom, in my view, has little to do with the poker pros and everything to do with the poker amateurs, who seem to win the main event at the World Series of Poker more often than not sover the past decade. Many, quite correctly, point to Chris Moneymaker's win as that sport's defining moment, the one that drew the viewers they wanted. Amateur poker players saw some of their own winning millions and millions despite the presence of many pros in the field. Once it had the right viewership, I agree with the observation that nutcases like Phil Helmuth and Mike Matusow help sustain interest in the product. I remember there was guy named Danneman, who claimed in an interview that he was only the fourth best player in his weekly game at home, yet he came second at the main event of the World Series of Poker. Poker has drawn the attention of many young, affluent amateurs that have the money to travel around and compete in large tournaments. These players are a high spending demographic group. the kind advertisers love to target, and for this reason, poker has a resonable chance to maintain its momentum.

Some suggest that pool can never attract the corporate sponsors, and maybe they are right, but I think they are wrong. Where I agree with them, however, is that given the demographic groups that pool attracts at present, corporate sponsorship will be hard to come by. Nonetheless, if pool can make itself more presentable, and nobody can deny that Ralph Greenleaf accomplished this once upon a time, it can attract a wider base of fans having far more spending power than the pool fans of today. That's the foundation that would have to be built before the corporate sponsors will have any motivation to invest in pool.

..... and incidents like the Nevel one are obstacles to making pool presentable enough for a) the wealthy to play and support it, b) parents to recommend it to their children, and c) corporate sponsors to take any interest in it.

Pool will have to earn the attention of the demographic groups that can deliver it from the doldrums. Poker had plenty of "colour" before Moneymaker, but that generated almost no attention at all. Once you've got the attention of those that matter, then "colour" will help you, but not, in my view, before, and the pro poker players who toiled in obscurity for decades are the perfect example.

Let's not throw in the towel quite yet.
 
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Well, we certainly wish Larry everything good with respect to his health, but I'm sure Larry knows that when you play on the stream table, you are representing both yourself and your sport.

If his medical situation is such that behavior reflecting poorly on pool was foreseeable, the tournament organizers should have been advised of it by Larry. Then, they'd have had the option of streaming a different match in that round, or at least, they might have made the commentators aware of the possibility that they might have to come to the rescue of the sport's dignity.

Let's not forget, incidents like this may happen in the most established sports, and are often overlooked. but pool is one of the many sports fighting for credibility, recognition, and sponsorship.

This doesn't help!

You know i thought about this and thought about it. When I was first diagnosed an Diabetic, I was totally ashamed and hated for anyone to know it. i felt guilty as if I had done something wrong, and got very confused with blood sugar swings. Trust it can hit very suddenly and often by then a little late. As i said earlier, very difficult to explain.
i doubt anyone feels more badly about the incident than he does.
Your point though is well taken, the game should come first. A tough situation!
 
What if someone in Gabe's family was diagnosed with a very serious medical condition that is very life threatening? How would you feel for judging him in that case? I'd bet 90% of us would have missed that match that he did if they were going through what he was.

Just sayin

If he's got a legitimate excuse, then he's got a legitimate excuse. So what?

What does that have to do with my scenario?
I feel fine for judging him, cause i'm not judging him with a legitimate excuse, I'm judging him if he bailed because he didn't feel like playing.

They are two different things entirely.

Feel free to link where gabe's reason for the forfeit was talked about in the main forum ad nauseum.:rolleyes:

Oh, by the way. It's nice to see you flip flop when you have suggested the exact same thing.(in the other thread)
He gets free entry remember?he won it before. If I was barry id never pay his way again
:rolleyes:
 
You know i thought about this and thought about it. When I was first diagnosed an Diabetic, I was totally ashamed and hated for anyone to know it. i felt guilty as if I had done something wrong, and got very confused with blood sugar swings. Trust it can hit very suddenly and often by then a little late. As i said earlier, very difficult to explain.
i doubt anyone feels more badly about the incident than he does.
Your point though is well taken, the game should come first. A tough situation!

I doubt if I'm wrong, but coud be, Dan Louie, has been diabetic his whole life, a wonderful man/person and at the table a true gentleman.
 
I watched that video of the shaft breaking, and from what I can tell;
The leather tip caught the rug and surprised the shit out of him. He also looked embarassed on top of already being frustrated with himself.

All I can say is that it sure didnt look that way in person. He pointed the tip of the stick down into the rug, the tip caught, then he pushed firmly til it bowed, then snapped.

FWIW, my seat was 5 feet away from him and I was watching him as he was walking back to his seat, along side the table. I had a clear view.


Eric
 
Smashed his own shaft into pieces after missing. It is falsely claimed in this thread that he finished in the top four, but he, in fact, came 5/6.

TY sir. I finally seen the video. He was :angry: for sure.
 
I'm kind of torn here. On the one hand I'm the TD and so have a responsibility to the event. On the other I sometimes think pool can be too antiseptic. A little show of emotion isn't such a bad thing. It only means that pool players are human, and passionate about the game. That said, my opinion is that for a players organization to be effective, they must also police their players. In a case like this (Nevel breaking his cue) a fine may be in order.

Personally I get along with Larry quite well. We've had a few discussions over the years about rules etc. but nothing different than I've had with many other players. I admire his abilities and his competitive instincts as well. I've never had a problem with Larry in decisions or calls I've had to make in any of his matches. I don't have a problem communicating with him, like I sometimes do with Earl.

And speaking of Earl, he was his usual self at the Open, but even he knew where to draw the line. When his opponent was at the table, he sat in his chair and kept his mouth shut. He did do a little jawing with the crowd when he was at that table, both before and after shots. He may not have known that I was monitoring him from a distance. If it had ever started to get out of hand I would have stepped in quickly. That was not necessary this year. I don't want to put a muzzle on Earl. The crowd expects him to entertain them in some way, so Ken and I give him some leeway. As long as he also respects his opponent, we have no problem.
 
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Let's not throw in the towel quite yet.

I completely agree with you, I just don't think players throwing tantrums are hurting the game much since I'd be surprised to find a pursuit that didn't have people displaying poor sportsmanship. The only way to avoid that is to avoid competitive mediums altogether, I mean you'll get people crying after losing in Mario Kart (not even children either). Though those blue shell are rather infuriating. You can be completing the perfect race and then BOOM, you're incapacitated and half the racers have passed you by. Siiiiiiigh, sorry, back to pool haha. I think you are right though that colourful players can't draw attention by themselves, but I don't think they drive them away. Alex Higgins did have the help of Pot Black to get people's attention, without it he'd never had made the headlines. Similarily though class acts won't draw much attention either by themeselves. By virture of being class acts, there really isn't much to report other than that they won and did so in a classy manner which doesn't generate much outside interest.

I feel that Pool's image is a seperate issue. When a recreational player finds out that I play and the caliber to which I perform to, they almost certainly make a comment about me being a hustler/shark etc. There seems to be this perception that if you get involved playing with a serious player, you'll get hustled. So the not so easy solution seems to be to present pool as a competitive activity (competition for competition's sake) rather than a forum for gambling. In fact I think it's almost worse when we weigh a players gambling record more than his tournament record as far as image is concerned. It reinforces the perception of pool as a gambling game. I can't really say anything bad about leagues as many do since imo they are doing what they can to provide a non-threatening environment for people to get involved. Sure there are issues with sandbagging and poor sports, but you get that in chess too.

I really don't have any answers, and I don't think that gambling needs to be taken out. It's not really practical for a lot of professionals and it'd be hypocritical as every sport involves gambling to one degree or another.

I've always maintained that the way to raise pool to any level of popularity as spectator sport is to sell the players first and foremost. If you get people to care about Corey Deuel the individual, they'll watch him do anything. I'd like to see a good documentary, serial, reality show about professional players on tv. If it's well done, and they focus on a small handful of players people will want to know more about them, root for them and hopefully watch them. Even if it's against someone tosses chairs.

I don't know how to attract the wealthy, but for my part as a newly graduated teacher I'm determined to start a school pool league once I've obtained a full time position. The only caveat is that without a table on site, I'd need to be in close proximity to a room of high reptute. I know of a few in my area, but who knows where I'll get a job. But there are other issues too, for example keeping certain regulars (the day time drinkers not the necessarily the players) away from my students, especially the girls. But I have polled the classes I taught and there are always a large portion who are excited at the concept.

Pool has every chance getting into the limelight. But at this point I think we need to hire a market research company and a marketing firm to help us. I doubt we'll get there if things continue as they are. I think a first step is that pool needs to get back on to tv. Easier said than done but it's what needs to happen.
 
I'm kind of torn here. On the one hand I'm the TD and so have a responsibility to the event. On the other I sometimes think pool can be too antiseptic. A little show of emotion isn't such a bad thing. It only means that pool players are human, and passionate about the game. That said, my opinion is that for a players organization to be effective, they must also police their players. In a case like this (Nevel breaking his cue) a fine may be in order.

Personally I get along with Larry quite well. We've had a few discussions over the years about rules etc. but nothing different than I've had with many other players. I admire his abilities and his competitive instincts as well. I've never had a problem with Larry in decisions or calls I've had to make in any of his matches. I don't have a problem communicating with him, like I sometimes do with Earl.

And speaking of Earl, he was his usual self at the Open, but even he knew where to draw the line. When his opponent was at the table, he sat in his chair and kept his mouth shut. He did do a little jawing with the crowd when he was at that table, both before and after shots. He may not have known that I was monitoring him from a distance. If it had ever started to get out of hand I would have stepped in quickly. That was not necessary this year. I don't want to put a muzzle on Earl. The crowd expects him to entertain them in some way, so Ken and I give him some leeway. As long as he also respects his opponent, we have no problem.

But Jay, it's not just about respecting his opponent, is it? Presumably, even if Earl is yapping away only while he's at the table, there are many other players in the immediate vicinity who may be affected by his running dialogue?

I've had to play next to Sigel in many matches, so... I know of what I speak. They're disrespecting the other players in the tournament. They act like there is no else in the room.

Btw - on topic - a baseball player who was just robbed of a hit tried to break a bat over his knee. He was unsuccessful, and the announcers were ribbing him about it. Go figure.

- Steve
 
In the contact sports you have the opportunity for legally releasing that energy/anger/frustraions on your opponent. In some non contact sports like volleyball,tennis etc one can legally release the emotions on the airfilled rubber ball. Pool being a non contact sport, there is nothing available to release those emotions except on to the pool stick. If u release it on the cue ball or object ball the balls may jump out of the table and hit the innocent bystanders/audience. Hence breaking the cue is much more safer and better option ( lesser of the two evils ).
Do pool players imagine/assume/believe/fantasize that pool is a gentleman`s game and is for kings and queens and the players are kings and queens ? Is that the reason pool players are not supposed to express any emotions? That is very Ironical. In the modern day, pool is nothing to do with the Royalty. We should stop our critical analysis and condemnation of the pool players and their free expression of emotions as long as they are not stepping on others. Most people enjoy watching the emotional display in other sports and why different standards for pool?:cool:
Pool should not be equated with Royalty. Don`t kid yourself.


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Quote:
Originally Posted by mantis99
"I simply can't buy this. Acting that way is simply poor sportsmanship. We reprimand little kids for this type of behavior. There is no excuse for it. Adults need to control themselves better than this. I think fines and suspensions are in order for this type of behavior, especially when it occurs more then once in a single tournament".


That happend in a sports arena and not in a broadway show theatre or a Four Season Restaurant where it may be considered as inappropriate. It s all relative and all depends on the scenario/context .

If he did anything when his opponent was at the table it is reasonable to consider diciplinary action. He did this during his time at the table. It was on his way back to his chair and I consider that as his time at the table.

I do remember when some people on this forum criticized 'Black Widdow' for celebrating after her win. Is one supposed to weep /cry after winning a match? Enough for political correctness.:cool:
 
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But Jay, it's not just about respecting his opponent, is it? Presumably, even if Earl is yapping away only while he's at the table, there are many other players in the immediate vicinity who may be affected by his running dialogue?

I've had to play next to Sigel in many matches, so... I know of what I speak. They're disrespecting the other players in the tournament. They act like there is no else in the room.

Btw - on topic - a baseball player who was just robbed of a hit tried to break a bat over his knee. He was unsuccessful, and the announcers were ribbing him about it. Go figure.

- Steve

Thanks Steve, I also look to see if Earl (or anyone else) is affecting the other players around him while he's at the table. Usually I can tell just by watching how the nearby players are reacting to him. Not one player came to me and complained about Earl this time around. He does appear to know what his boundaries are. :rolleyes:
 
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