Different Joint and differences

Oh sigh here I go picking a side ... I'm going to get screamed at again ...

I have Ivory, Derlin, Wood, and Stainless Steel joints in various cues. The problem is, these are all in different cues so it's hard to say 100% if it's the whole cue or the joint that produces the result. The only way to be honest is to use the same cue, with each different type of joint. Even then small variances from one cue to the next could be considered skewing the results.

Anyways, I'll dig a hole:

Ivory: "hard & true" That's how they "feel" to me. Many other posters have posted similar reviews of them. Hard? Well, they hit very solidly. No vibrations, no dead spots. True? Related to the previous, but I can feel a miscue in my fingers. The joint transfers all of the feel (power used) from cueball to my grip hand.

Derlin: Dead. It's not necessarily a bad thing, but these (to me) take quite a bit of that feel of how hard I hit out of the shot. They do still hit nicely and they are uniform in how they play, however these are solid pieces of resin so I wouldn't think they would have any variance. Yours might. It makes for a nice hitting cue, depending on the shaft of course. Mine are piloted so you may different results with a flat-faced Derlin joint.

Wood: Very "springy". It's a solid "thunk" when you hit the CB and vibrations go up and down the cue. I suppose "lively" might be a better word, but I'm not terribly impressed with it. Some people might love them though.

SS: "Ugh": Not my cup of tea. They are solid and uniform but I don't like the hit. It's a mix of dead and vibrations running up and down the whole cue. I like feel in my cue but these transmit too much and at the same time I can't tell how hard I hit by my fingers.

As long as the joint is constructed correctly, it does not matter what it is.

The only thing other thing that matters is what you like.

Soulweb said:

Hi all. I have a feeling this is a loaded question so please read the whole post before you offer any opinions.

I was hoping to find someplace, either in a book, a website, or on this forum, where I could get information of the different types of joints used on pool cues. Specifically why some joints may be used over others, and why some people prefer ivory, vs. phenolic, or stainless steel. Why all the different thread types (is it purely to keep cue materials proprietary?), uni-lock, quick, wood to wood, piloted, etc.

Obviously a lot of theories have gone into the development of these different iterations of joints. And of course most likely thousands of man hours. Is there a general consensus that, say wood to wood as in a Southwest cue provides a softer hit than say, an Ivory joint? Is it common knowledge? Or is it all myth and opinion?

All I was hoping to find out is whether or not there is book, website, or even forum thread somewhere that contains this information. If not, it would be nice to see it. I'm 42 (will be 43 in about 12 hours after I post this), have played for many years. Just got back into playing again. When I started it was all word of mouth...nothing else. But with the internet I now see...might be as many as 20 common joint types being used by diff builders. I want a nice cue. I figured out quite a bit about cues from this site. But the cue joint remains a mystery to me. Just can't find anything on it.

I have looked high and low, Amazon, Google, and yes, even used the "search" feature on this forum. I'm not looking to start a debate. I don't even care which joint is better. Just was curious as to what the fundemental differences between the different joint types are. if it's all purely a matter of aesthetics then I guess the questions end right there.

Thanks all. I have never found a source for billiards information anywhere that comes close to the wisdom and knowledge of this forum's members. Hope someone here can pull through.

Click to expand...

http://www.billiardwarehouse.com/cues/schmelke/schmelke_jointchoices.htm
http://shop.vikingcue.com/options/joint-options

Try these links for some basic info.

Put a piece of tape over the joint and it will make a lot les of a difference.

Sent from my ADR6350 using Tapatalk

Here is my considered opinion.

A) 75% of the hit is in the tip
B) 20% of the hit is in the shaft
C) this leaves 5% for EVERYTHING else

The butt, weight, balance point, finish, wrap, joint are part of that everything else. Therefore, the joint might mater on the order of 1%-ish at best. Thus, overall, it is essentially irrelevent to the performance of a well made cue--except as it relates to weight and balance.

I hear a lot of people complaining about the SS joints and I kind of understand their points. I wish Szamboti and Balabuska were still around so I could tell them how much SS joints suck! I could alway tell Tascarella. LOL.
I venture out, but I keep going back to cues with the SS joint. Just feels right to me. I like to play with a soft tip so I think I need that rigidity some where in my cue.

Maybe someone will chime in about the ivory sleeved steel joint and provide an explanation as to how the steel doesnt absorb all the impact. This is highly doubtfull because it cant be done. All the different joints out there are just a personal preference to the shooter. Whether it be wood, steel, ivory, phenolic, micarta, antler, horn, brass...etc it all depends on what feels good to the person playing with it. It may not be possible to say for sure if there is a "best" joint material out there because there will always be people who have different favorites. When it comes to ferrule's, that might be another story. I have heard from many people over the years say that ivory has much more of a tendancy to squirt the cue ball than say lbm, aegis or other materials.

This would be an interesting topic in the ask the cuemaker section to see what joint most people prefeffed when ordering a cue.

Here's my preference: SS joint, Micarta Ferrule and a soft Kamui Black tip.

Tony_in_MD said:

As long as the joint is constructed correctly, it does not matter what it is.

The only thing other thing that matters is what you like.

Click to expand...

I am of the same thought: As long as a material/ method meets the requirement of the application, it will have a set of basic and predictable attributes.

Certainly some folks claim to be able to tell the difference between different joint types, but I am sure the blind taste test has been referenced already here:smile:

I am not a cuemaker!!

Having stated that fact, I will now move forward with my ideas.

I have come to think that ivory sleeved over SS joints are for two purposes:
Weight distribution and Aesthetics. Ivory is lighter than steel, so if the cuemaker needed to lighten up the joint area, or even the entire cue, this would be a possible way. I do believe it would also change the balance point.

As far as there being no differnce in joint material as far as the hit is concerned, I have a hard time believing this. Different materials have different densities and different molecular structures and bonding patterns. These differences will lead to different rates and percentages of energy transfer. Now, how noticeable this difference is, I cannot answer.

I have a Black Boar with a SS piloted joint, and it is the best playing cue I have ever personally used. I used to shoot with a Tim Scruggs with the same type of joint, and my Boar performs much better, in my opinion. Two of my teammates use Scruggs cues, but both have flat-faced sleeved ivory joints. I like the hit of those two cues better than my SS Scruggs. I also once owned a high end cue with a solid, piolted ivory joint with a uni-loc joint. I hated how it played, but it sure was pretty.

Conclusion: There has got to be a difference, but this difference may only be measurable with sophisticated equipment. Or maybe it can be felt by all. I do not know. I know what I prefer, and that will change from cue to cue. I have hit incredible cues made from all different types of joints. I do agree that tip, ferrule, and shaft probably play the biggest role in any cue's given "hit."

Braden<---------thinks it is highly possible he doesn't know sh*t, but just likes seeing the the sound of his own voice!!:smile:

Soulweb said:

Specifically why some joints may be used over others, and why some people prefer ivory, vs. phenolic, or stainless steel. Why all the different thread types (is it purely to keep cue materials proprietary?), uni-lock, quick, wood to wood, piloted, etc.

Click to expand...

I really think it's just a matter of settling on something you like and sticking with it. I play with a SS joint because I am used to the hit and balance that it provides.
I've also noticed, at least with me, that if I am playing with another joint and I am not playing well I have a tendency to place blame on that. At least if I am playing with my setup and I stink, I know it's my own fault :smile:

It is generally believed that the harder the material the joint is made from, the harder the hit the cue stick will withstand, and the softer the material, the more feel to the hit. Therefore, a break stick would be best to have a hard metal joint, while a player who likes to really feel the shot and use some finesse, would more appreciate a wood-to-wood joint

this came from here
http://www.pool-and-pocket-billiards-resource.com/pool_cue_joint.html

and this
Let's talk about joints for a two piece pool cue.
There are as many joints as there are manufacturers, which one should you choose?
Since most people prefer two piece cues, one question that comes to mind is a joint. There are many configurations, different threads and locking system, but mainly there are several types:

· Wood on wood.
· Wood on metal.
· Metal on metal.

Wood on wood delivers a softer hit with more control of a cue ball. People who prefer positioning game, love wood on wood joint.

Wood on metal gives you a medium hit with fair amount of control of the cue ball, people who are fairly new to billiard and don't care much for English will like these ones.

Metal on metal will deliver most powerful hit and very little control of a cue ball. Good for jump break cues.


came from here
http://www.squidoo.com/billiard-place-cues

bbb said:

It is generally believed that the harder the material the joint is made from, the harder the hit the cue stick will withstand, and the softer the material, the more feel to the hit. Therefore, a break stick would be best to have a hard metal joint, while a player who likes to really feel the shot and use some finesse, would more appreciate a wood-to-wood joint

this came from here
http://www.pool-and-pocket-billiards-resource.com/pool_cue_joint.html

Click to expand...

See, now that's funny to me in that, I find it to be the opposite. I feel the SS is a softer hit while wood to wood is a firmer hit with more feedback.
This is exactly why it's such a personal preference topic.

Thanks,
Koop

can someboday plesae link the test where it was proven that people who know cues couldn't tell the difference?

3days later:
see post 8, in partiku lar
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=119198

thread closid

If I remember correctly it was at a texas express event, that Randy G. and John M. ran.

Black-Balled said:

can someboday plesae link the test where it was proven that people who know cues couldn't tell the difference?

3days later:
see post 8, in partiku lar
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=119198

thread closid

Click to expand...

Tony_in_MD said:

If I remember correctly it was at a texas express event, that Randy G. and John M. ran.

Click to expand...

Here it is. I keep it handy all the time.

Here is a Post from John McChesney circa 1999:

Here's something interesting we tried in 1991:
At an event we had 16 cues with the butt, joint and the ferrules covered
with masking tape...then numbered. No one could "see" if the cue was a
steel, plastic or wood joint (as in a Pete), nor detect by the style of
ferrule. We had 70 players...each hit balls with the cues throughout the
weekend.

The results:
Of nearly 800 attempts over the time period, the players guessed wrong about
what type joint was in the cue more than 7 out of 10 times. A top pro
(Meucci staffer) happened to be there, having done an exhibition and the cue
he liked the most during the attempts: He thought was surely a Meucci,
plastic joint when in reality it was an older Adams with a piloted steel
joint; and additionally guessed the Meucci he shot with as a cue with a
steel joint. Again, I maintain that cues with different joint materials may
sound differently; may be balanced differently, but what is "hit" ? Doesn't
"hit" have to do with all the senses: Vibration (feel), sound, balance, etc.
What is a "soft" hit? What is a "hard" hit? (what does this mean, if not
the sound the cue makes upon impact, or are people ref. to the vibration in
the butt?) Does a hard hit vibrate more and make a different sound? A soft
hit vibrate less with a different sound? I maintain that the primary
criteria that differentiates one cue from another begins with: The tip
(soft, med or hard) The shaft diameter and density of the wood The taper (or
stiffness of the shaft) To this day, I still don't believe the joint has
much to do with the reaction of the cueball off the shaft, rather it is the
3 aforementioned that have far more bearing on how a cue plays than anything
else. Remember, what makes the predator shaft play differently is what is
located at the tip, inside the shaft, the ferrule and the laminations....not
the joint or butt. In closing, our experiment asked which cue the players
liked best: Of the 70 players, nearly 55 liked the hit of two cues with
different numbers: When the two were exposed, they both were sneaky petes,
wood to wood joints, (one a Scruggs and the other a Huebler); both about 19
oz., both about 13 1/4mm and tended to be on the stiff side of "hit". By
the way, the 55 who liked the hit of these two cues: more than half thought
they would be steel jointed.

If only your powers cold be used for good...!