Is this type of hit legal?

ENGLISH! · Jul 22, 2012

I believe someone on here was asking for conformation, that in one of long ago black & white TV days in a championship, for some reason, one of the 'masters' shot up throught the pocket at the cue ball that was hanging over the edge of the pocket. Just for consideration, and I do not know how he got his cue stick through the pocket.

ENGLISH! · Jul 22, 2012

mlfield said:
You can lay your cue on the table with it being a foul. As long as your not lining up a shot or angle your fine. Just laying it on the table is not a foul. I have put my cue on the table many times to let's say, reach for the bridge or get my extension out of my bag.

Good point.

branpureza · Jul 22, 2012

ENGLISH! said:
I tend to agree. Simiiar to a straignt down masse'.

A massè is a forward motion of the cue. Also whether the shot is "straight down" or at any angle doesn't matter whatsoever.

Lifting the front end of the cue is not a forward motion and definitely should not be considered legal.

ENGLISH! · Jul 22, 2012

branpureza said:
A massè is a forward motion of the cue. Also whether the shot is "straight down" or at any angle doesn't matter whatsoever.

Lifting the front end of the cue is not a forward motion and definitely should not be considered legal.

How is a STRAIGHT DOWN masse a forward motion. Relative to what? The tip is moving STRAIGHT DOWN the opposite of up. The ball 'squirts' to the opposite side of the hit. I definitely must not understand the english language.

branpureza · Jul 22, 2012

ENGLISH! said:
How is a STRAIGHT DOWN masse a forward motion. Relative to what? The tip is moving STRAIGHT DOWN the opposite of up. The ball 'squirts' to the opposite side of the hit. I definitely must not understand the english language.

I believe you understand the English language fine, you just don't have as much of a firm grasp on pool as you think you do.

ENGLISH! said:
How is a STRAIGHT DOWN masse a forward motion. Relative to what?

Relative to what?? Relative to the way the cue is pointing of course. If the cue is pointing "STRAIGHT DOWN" then a forward motion would require it to follow the same path it's pointing toward.

If you're standing back to back with someone and they start walking away from you, guess what, they aren't walking backwards!

John Novak · Jul 22, 2012

mlfield said:
You can lay your cue on the table with it being a foul. As long as your not lining up a shot or angle your fine. Just laying it on the table is not a foul. I have put my cue on the table many times to let's say, reach for the bridge or get my extension out of my bag.

if you read the posters original post he said he laid the cue on the table and lined up the shot......so he was in violation of the rule.........read his post

ENGLISH! · Jul 22, 2012

branpureza said:
I believe you understand the English language fine, you just don't have as much of a firm grasp on pool as you think you do.

Relative to what?? Relative to the way the cue is pointing of course. If the cue is pointing "STRAIGHT DOWN" then a forward motion would require it to follow the same path it's pointing toward.

If you're standing back to back with someone and they start walking away from you, guess what, they aren't walking backwards!

So, if I took a 'slip-on ferrule tip' & put it under the cue ball & pushed STRAIGHT UP, would it be a legal shot, because the cue tip is moving 'forward'? I'm just asking?

Also, if I used the bridge & placed the stick on it & slid it up just under the cue ball & then pushed down on the butt & the tip goes up & ever so slightly foward because of the folcrum of the bridge, would that be a legal shot? Again, I'm just asking.

smoooothstroke · Jul 22, 2012

zpele said:
Alright so lets say you have to make a close hit on the cue ball when it has less than half an inch in between itself and the object ball. You take your cue and lay it down on the table. You then slide the tip just under the outer edge of the cue ball.

Now with the cue still laying on the table you grab it about a foot away from the tip with one hand and quickly bring the tip straight up so that it just contacts the cue ball with enough force to hit the object ball.

Is that legal and if so in what leagues?

I don't tink he is necessarily letting go of his cue here.

Sort of a tough call there is a rule against scooping the cueball on jump shots.I recall a rule stating that any misscue on a jump or masse atemt is considered a foul.I don't think any of these fit the shot described.If it doesn't fall under the definition of a legal stroke then it would be a foul.

smoooothstroke · Jul 22, 2012

From the BCa rulebook:

Legal Stroke
Forward motion of the cue resulting in the cue tip striking the cue ball for only the
momentary time customarily associated with a normal shot. "Forward" means relative to
the cue itself, along the long axis of the cue and away from the butt, and has no relevance
to any part of the table or any relationship to the player or any part of their body.

branpureza · Jul 22, 2012

ENGLISH! said:
So, if I took a 'slip-on ferrule tip' & put it under the cue ball & pushed STRAIGHT UP, would it be a legal shot, because the cue tip is moving 'forward'? I'm just asking?

No, you cannot execute a shot with part of a pool cue. Also a ferrule and tip would not meet the length requirements.

ENGLISH! said:
Also, if I used the bridge & placed the stick on it & slid it up just under the cue ball & then pushed down on the butt & the tip goes up & ever so slightly foward because of the folcrum of the bridge, would that be a legal shot? Again, I'm just asking.

No, there would be no forward motion in this type of action.

ENGLISH! · Jul 22, 2012

branpureza said:
No, you cannot execute a shot with part of a pool cue. Also a ferrule and tip would not meet the length requirements.

No, there would be no forward motion in this type of action.

Check out a lever / folcrum action & I believe you will find a 'slight forward' movement of the end of the lever relative to the up motion of it, unless it slides back on the folcrum, which it should not, but if it stays fixed to the folcrum I believe you will find that it does move forward slightly. Use a ruler & something about 2" tall for the folcrum. Put one end of the ruler up extremely close to two(2) 90 degree' planes' like your contertop backsplash (unless it's rounded), lift the other end & slide the folcrum up to the 'front' quater of the ruler & hold them together. Now push down on the high side of the ruler. What do you feel & see?

PS Is a jump cue part of a pool cue? I was trying to claify your point with the 'ferrule tip'. What is the BCA definition of a cue stick? I no longer have my book.

PS So by the legal shot definition, would the one in post #21 of this thread be legal?

dmyles · Jul 22, 2012

I have seen the shot only a few times in tournaments in a safety situation as described by Zepele.

branpureza · Jul 22, 2012

ENGLISH! said:
but if it stays fixed to the folcrum I believe you will find that it does move forward slightly.

It can't move forward if it is fixed to the folcrum. It's moving in a circular motion, not a forward one.

You're reaching to a point that is ridiculous.

ENGLISH! said:
PS Is a jump cue part of a pool cue? I was trying to claify your point with the 'ferrule tip'. What is the BCA definition of a cue stick? I no longer have my book.

A jump cue is considered a cue in itself even if it's part of a jump/break.

A jump cue also has length requirements for it to be legal.

ENGLISH! said:
PS So by the legal shot definition, would the one in post #21 of this thread be legal?

As long as no scoop occured I would assume yes, it was legal, but I don't know of any rules about shooting through a gap in, or a braided leather pocket.

This is my last post in this thread.

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SKILLZELITE · Jul 22, 2012

:Legal in my eyes:

I've used that method in order to avoid double tipping the cue ball, on very close shots, on numerous occasions, and in many different leagues,and tourneys..

The only thing you have to be aware of, is not to take a hand off the cue @ any point.. Otherwise, you could be called on a foul for using a aiming device; Because some leagues I've played in, do not allow you to set your cue on the table, without the cue still being in your hand ,because they'll claim its a illegal method of aiming..

scsuxci · Jul 22, 2012

itsfroze said:
The answer to that would be no.

This is correct and as far as I've ever heard one hand has to be
holding the cue.That shot would consist of no hands holding
the cue.Not Legal!!!!

ENGLISH! · Jul 22, 2012

branpureza said:
It can't move forward if it is fixed to the folcrum. It's moving in a circular motion, not a forward one.

You're reaching to a point that is ridiculous.

A jump cue is considered a cue in itself even if it's part of a jump/break.

A jump cue also has length requirements for it to be legal.

As long as no scoop occured I would assume yes, it was legal, but I don't know of any rules about shooting through a gap in, or a braided leather pocket.

This is my last post in this thread.

_______________________________________________

If you're going to leave the discussion, we (U & I) can not finish defining 'forward'. I do not believe the quoted defnition of a leagal shot said the strike has to be perfectly 'straight' forward, as then many shots would be illegal & some of us could not even play as too many shots (strokes) would be illegal. If the tip moves from a point outside the circumferance of the cue ball & then, even though on the path of an arc then hits the cue ball it has moved 'forward' relative to the pointing angle of the stick.

Celophanewrap · Jul 22, 2012

Lets take a closer look at this question, I believe the OP in a later post referred to the APA, to be certain, this is legal in the APA. But keep in mind that the APA can be quite "unique" regarding some of the rules of the pocket billiards. I had seen it done in at least one tour event a few years ago (when there was a tour), since then on the pro level that rule may have changed. As indicated by some of the posts here this is a foul in the BCA as well as some of the other organizations, but respective of the APA it is a legal shot

Cory in DC · Jul 22, 2012

smoooothstroke said:
From the BCa rulebook:

Legal Stroke
Forward motion of the cue resulting in the cue tip striking the cue ball for only the
momentary time customarily associated with a normal shot. "Forward" means relative to
the cue itself, along the long axis of the cue and away from the butt, and has no relevance
to any part of the table or any relationship to the player or any part of their body.

This seems to distinguish the lift-up shot from the downward masse. For the latter, even if the cue is 90 degrees in the air and pointing straight at the bed of the table, it's moving forward in the sense that the direction is along the line of the cue. In contrast, for the lift-up shot, the direction is perpendicular to the line of the cue.

Too bad, since I've used the lift-up shot now and again.

DogsPlayingPool · Jul 22, 2012

zpele said:
Alright so lets say you have to make a close hit on the cue ball when it has less than half an inch in between itself and the object ball. You take your cue and lay it down on the table. You then slide the tip just under the outer edge of the cue ball.

Now with the cue still laying on the table you grab it about a foot away from the tip with one hand and quickly bring the tip straight up so that it just contacts the cue ball with enough force to hit the object ball.

Is that legal and if so in what leagues?

The shot you describe is illegal under World Standardized rules (WPA). It is also illegal under BCAPL rules. In fact, in the BCAPL rule book the shot you are describing is specifically diagrammed to illustrate an illegal shot (page 25):

http://www.playbca.com/Downloads/Rulebook/CompleteRulebook.aspx

As for APA I wouldn't know.

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In regards to laying your cue on the table and letting go, that is not illegal in the BCAPL though it is against the World Rules (WPA).

Bob Jewett · Jul 22, 2012

3kushn said:
Interesting. This would require using a bridge if a shot can't be reached. Maybe the rule is different in 3C, have to check, but many times I've laid the cue down after ligning it up the walk around the table pick it up and shoot arms stretched out and no line of site. There are positions where a CB can't be reached with or without a bridge or either with hand.

This is a standard technique at 3-C that I've seen Ceulemans use.

The "put the cue on the table and it's a foul" rule should be removed from the pool rules. I believe it was put in due to a few people who would chart out shots for minutes at a time with their cue, any available bridge and whatever else they could borrow and carry to the table. Rather than simply apply the existing slow play rule, someone decided to punish them. Or at least that's my take on the situation.

Is this type of hit legal?

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