How much skill does a player with a certain rank actually have?

Push&Pool

Push&Pool

Professional Banger
Silver Member
To be more precise, if someone is a C player, or someone else is an APA 3 in 8-ball, what does that actually mean? Is the rank simply based on their results (win/loss ratio) in the competitions, or is the ranking system based on certain skills and capabilities of a player? What I actually want to know is if it's possible to "rank" a random player simply by watching him or playing with him for a while, simply from observing the skills and consistency he has shown during all the matches, even if he doesn't play in any league?
 
Push&Pool said:
To be more precise, if someone is a C player, or someone else is an APA 3 in 8-ball, what does that actually mean? Is the rank simply based on their results (win/loss ratio) in the competitions, or is the ranking system based on certain skills and capabilities of a player? What I actually want to know is if it's possible to "rank" a random player simply by watching him or playing with him for a while, simply from observing the skills and consistency he has shown during all the matches, even if he doesn't play in any league?
Click to expand...

To answer your question....


Yes

End of thread.
 
You know, you continue to show how very little you know about pool and poolplayers. To answer your questions...they don't mean a thing; and yes, someone can be reasonably handicapped by watching them play (as long as they're not on the lemon).

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

Push&Pool said:
To be more precise, if someone is a C player, or someone else is an APA 3 in 8-ball, what does that actually mean? Is the rank simply based on their results (win/loss ratio) in the competitions, or is the ranking system based on certain skills and capabilities of a player? What I actually want to know is if it's possible to "rank" a random player simply by watching him or playing with him for a while, simply from observing the skills and consistency he has shown during all the matches, even if he doesn't play in any league?
Click to expand...
 
B/C rankings are kind of hazy at best, but I'll give it a go..

A C player will rarely run out a full rack in 8 ball.. Perhaps 1 out of 10 games..
A C player will run 4-6 balls in 9 ball, but generally not more..
This is where I am at right now.. :thumbup:

A B player has the capability to run out fairly regularly in 8 ball, perhaps as much as 3-4 games out of 10
A B player will regularly run 5-7 balls in 9 balls, and sometimes run a rack or two, but generally does not have a high level of consistency.

An A player has a solid skillset, and is capable of running as many as 4-6 racks out of 10 in 8 ball
An A player regularly runs out from the 1 ball in 9 ball, but may lack a consistent break and consistent safety play.

An AA/Open player has a good break and a well-developed safety game. These players can get on a roll and run 6-7 racks out of 10 in 8 ball, and regular breaks and runs multiple racks in 9 ball, but usually tops out at 3-4 on a good day. An AA/Open player plays patterns correctly, and handles more difficult situations on the table in a manner consistent with generally choosing the "right" play, but does not execute as well as well know mid tier pros.

Above this level are players who have great breaks, can easily run 3-4 racks with a limited time to get to know the table, and virtually always make the right, "high percentage" decision on safeties, pushouts, position patterns, etc..

Hope this helps...

Short Bus Russ - C Player
 
ShortBusRuss said:
B/C rankings are kind of hazy at best, but I'll give it a go..

A C player will rarely run out a full rack in 8 ball.. Perhaps 1 out of 10 games..
A C player will run 4-6 balls in 9 ball, but generally not more..
This is where I am at right now.. :thumbup:

A B player has the capability to run out fairly regularly in 8 ball, perhaps as much as 3-4 games out of 10
A B player will regularly run 5-7 balls in 9 balls, and sometimes run a rack or two, but generally does not have a high level of consistency.

An A player has a solid skillset, and is capable of running as many as 4-6 racks out of 10 in 8 ball
An A player regularly runs out from the 1 ball in 9 ball, but may lack a consistent break and consistent safety play.

An AA/Open player has a good break and a well-developed safety game. These players can get on a roll and run 6-7 racks out of 10 in 8 ball, and regular breaks and runs multiple racks in 9 ball, but usually tops out at 3-4 on a good day. An AA/Open player plays patterns correctly, and handles more difficult situations on the table in a manner consistent with generally choosing the "right" play, but does not execute as well as well know mid tier pros.

Above this level are players who have great breaks, can easily run 3-4 racks with a limited time to get to know the table, and virtually always make the right, "high percentage" decision on safeties, pushouts, position patterns, etc..

Hope this helps...

Short Bus Russ - C Player
Click to expand...

You're a bit generous with your rankings, your C is closer to a B. Very few C players can run out 10% of their 8 ball racks, even with ball in hand. C players would be on a good streak to run 6 balls in 9 ball, they are probably closer to 3-4.
 
hang-the-9 said:
You're a bit generous with your rankings, your C is closer to a B. Very few C players can run out 10% of their 8 ball racks, even with ball in hand. C players would be on a good streak to run 6 balls in 9 ball, they are probably closer to 3-4.
Click to expand...

I am detailing the top end of the rankings, generally...

On a good day, a C player will run 1 out of 10 racks in 8 ball. C players are generally a slight cut above the average bar players, and might be expected to keep the table for 3-4 games if no "real" players are in the house.

Short Bus Russ
 
Push&Pool said:
To be more precise, if someone is a C player, or someone else is an APA 3 in 8-ball, what does that actually mean? Is the rank simply based on their results (win/loss ratio) in the competitions, or is the ranking system based on certain skills and capabilities of a player? What I actually want to know is if it's possible to "rank" a random player simply by watching him or playing with him for a while, simply from observing the skills and consistency he has shown during all the matches, even if he doesn't play in any league?
Click to expand...


rankings in any sport are just a guide to give u an idea of skill levels and w the game of pool there's so many different factors that can aid or deplete a players skill set it just makes things that more difficult to judge

i've never had any 1st hand experience w letter ratings but w apa 8ball u could likely watch some1 play and whatever their high ball run was for the night could just as easily be their skill level
 
ShortBusRuss said:
B/C rankings are kind of hazy at best, but I'll give it a go..

A C player will rarely run out a full rack in 8 ball.. Perhaps 1 out of 10 games..
A C player will run 4-6 balls in 9 ball, but generally not more..
This is where I am at right now.. :thumbup:

A B player has the capability to run out fairly regularly in 8 ball, perhaps as much as 3-4 games out of 10
A B player will regularly run 5-7 balls in 9 balls, and sometimes run a rack or two, but generally does not have a high level of consistency.

An A player has a solid skillset, and is capable of running as many as 4-6 racks out of 10 in 8 ball
An A player regularly runs out from the 1 ball in 9 ball, but may lack a consistent break and consistent safety play.

An AA/Open player has a good break and a well-developed safety game. These players can get on a roll and run 6-7 racks out of 10 in 8 ball, and regular breaks and runs multiple racks in 9 ball, but usually tops out at 3-4 on a good day. An AA/Open player plays patterns correctly, and handles more difficult situations on the table in a manner consistent with generally choosing the "right" play, but does not execute as well as well know mid tier pros.

Above this level are players who have great breaks, can easily run 3-4 racks with a limited time to get to know the table, and virtually always make the right, "high percentage" decision on safeties, pushouts, position patterns, etc..

Hope this helps...

Short Bus Russ - C Player
Click to expand...

Thanks very much, this is just the kind of explanation I was looking for :)

ShortBusRuss said:
I am detailing the top end of the rankings, generally...

On a good day, a C player will run 1 out of 10 racks in 8 ball. C players are generally a slight cut above the average bar players, and might be expected to keep the table for 3-4 games if no "real" players are in the house.

Short Bus Russ
Click to expand...

Wait, if you're saying that C players can run up to 1 out of 10 8-ball racks, and they're only slightly above average bar players, then you must have some really good bangers over there :D Some of my friends and I would probably rank as average, or even a little above average bangers, and we may run a rack in 8-ball once in 100-200 games. We play last pocket and some other rules are different as well (and the equipment is kinda screwed up), so I can't say if running out is easier or harder than in regular settings. Maybe I got the wrong feeling, as we play mostly for fun and we rarely compete seriously. Maybe we would actually be only a step below C players if we stopped playing around and played every game 100% for the win for some time. But still, I would say there should be one more step between average bar guys and your description of a C player...
 
Push&Pool said:
Thanks very much, this is just the kind of explanation I was looking for :)



Wait, if you're saying that C players can run up to 1 out of 10 8-ball racks, and they're only slightly above average bar players, then you must have some really good bangers over there :D Some of my friends and I would probably rank as average, or even a little above average bangers, and we may run a rack in 8-ball once in 100-200 games. We play last pocket and some other rules are different as well (and the equipment is kinda screwed up), so I can't say if running out is easier or harder than in regular settings. Maybe I got the wrong feeling, as we play mostly for fun and we rarely compete seriously. Maybe we would actually be only a step below C players if we stopped playing around and played every game 100% for the win for some time. But still, I would say there should be one more step between average bar guys and your description of a C player...
Click to expand...

Well, I was kinda getting beat up there a bit.. I would classify "D" players as the level you mentioned.. They are players who have some basic knowledge of the game, but don't have good fundamentals, hardly any knowledge of safety play, and no knowledge of pattern play.

C players at least have knowledge of these concepts, and have quite a bit better fundamentals than average bar bangers...

In my mind.. C players can hold a table for 3-4 games in a bar, mebbe a few more on a good night... B players can hold it for 8-10 games in a bar, minus any good players... And even a lower level A will hold it all night long, even if there are guys capable of making 4-5 balls..

The difference between the B/C and the A is... The A has a vastly superior amount of knowledge, and knows how to triage the game if he misses an out, and prevents the other guy from having a decent chance to get out..

And referencing your comment.. If you and your friends only run 1 out of 100, then you guys are basically D/social players, with only minimal interest in the competitive side of the game..

Nothing wrong with that.. Just depends on what you are playing the game to achieve..

Russ
 
The D level is probably the largest skill level in pool as it encompasses everyone from the rookie who can't even hold a cue to someone who has managed to break and run.

Judging a player by run outs and balls run can give you a snap shot of how they are doing on any given night, but I find the best way to gauge a player is based around shot selection and cue ball control. Lots of players are able to play up a level from time to time as their shot making might be especially good one night, or their speed control is just right as well. But shot selection and habits give away everything, I don't think they often change unless a conscious effort is made.
 
Cameron Smith said:
The D level is probably the largest skill level in pool as it encompasses everyone from the rookie who can't even hold a cue to someone who has managed to break and run.

Judging a player by run outs and balls run can give you a snap shot of how they are doing on any given night, but I find the best way to gauge a player is based around shot selection and cue ball control. Lots of players are able to play up a level from time to time as their shot making might be especially good one night, or their speed control is just right as well. But shot selection and habits give away everything, I don't think they often change unless a conscious effort is made.
Click to expand...

Now when you put it that way, some time ago I made my own way to classify all those players you described as D. I found it necessary to assess my opponents better and to keep track on my own and others' improvement. Maybe I post it here.
 
Johnson said:
rankings in any sport are just a guide to give u an idea of skill levels and w the game of pool there's so many different factors that can aid or deplete a players skill set it just makes things that more difficult to judge

i've never had any 1st hand experience w letter ratings but w apa 8ball u could likely watch some1 play and whatever their high ball run was for the night could just as easily be their skill level
Click to expand...

I'm an APA5, and I run six or seven balls often enough to put a blip in that theory. (Note I said six or seven, and not break and run...sigh.) Similarly, I run five to seven balls in 9-ball often enough, note a pattern here? :p

I'm still a ways from being an SL6.

The thing is consistency, or lack thereof. That's what you need to be looking for, in assessing anyone or anything.

I don't know how that corresponds with the letter system, and I'm always curious about it, and applying it to people I've seen play. I was merely commenting on the APA portion of the discussion, the part I know a little about.
 
Here's a pool rating page.

http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/ratings.html

C-Player
will probably run one rack, but usually not more than one rack in a typical race to 7
Click to expand...

a C player runs a rack in a race to 7?? I'm thinking a C player might run a rack an entire day(3+hrs of pool), maybe even none.

The BNR rate from the U.S open was 21%. 7-Day Total -- 124 of 585 (21%)
SVB BNR rate was 36%(16/45).

http://forums.azbilliards.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&noquote=1&p=4415017
 
Push&Pool said:
To be more precise, if someone is a C player, or someone else is an APA 3 in 8-ball, what does that actually mean?
Click to expand...

It depends on where you are from. For instance, a WI "A" player is equal to a MI "B" player. And the WI "A" player is not even close to being at the top! Here's Michigan vs Wisconsin

AA = Top Amateur
A = Master
BB = AA
B = A
C = B

So it really depends on what letter system you use. As a sidenote, someone like Jason Kirkwood would be one step above an "AA", an "AAA" if you would. So how many steps up from Jason to Shane?

Push&Pool said:
Is the rank simply based on their results (win/loss ratio) in the competitions, or is the ranking system based on certain skills and capabilities of a player? What I actually want to know is if it's possible to "rank" a random player simply by watching him or playing with him for a while, simply from observing the skills and consistency he has shown during all the matches, even if he doesn't play in any league?
Click to expand...

I'm a very firm believer that you can't rank a player simply by watching them play. I also believe you can't rank by saying something like, "They ran x racks out of this many."

The majority of players play differently depending on what they are playing. Some players excel at tournaments & suck at league, others are just the opposite. Some are great gamblers & rarely book a loser but suck at tournaments.

As you get higher up on the skill level chart there is more consistency between tournaments, leagues and gambling.

I believe the best way to rank a player for tournaments is against similar players. So all the MI B's play together, the WI AA's play together, etc.

If you put a MI "BB" player into a MI "C" tournament the "BB" is going to consistently kill the field.
 
Just my opinion, but your apa rank means nothing till you max out and even then it is of little guide. An apa 7/9 can be a B player, or they could be AA.
 
Push&Pool said:
To be more precise, if someone is a C player, or someone else is an APA 3 in 8-ball, what does that actually mean? Is the rank simply based on their results (win/loss ratio) in the competitions, or is the ranking system based on certain skills and capabilities of a player? What I actually want to know is if it's possible to "rank" a random player simply by watching him or playing with him for a while, simply from observing the skills and consistency he has shown during all the matches, even if he doesn't play in any league?
Click to expand...

Put up $50 on the table (as a gift-collect $5.00 or $10.00 from each player) and ask them to run three 9 ball racks consecutively in front of a crowd, with a hard break (balls go above side pocket)
Give each 3 attempts, each time they miss start the count all over, if balls are touching each other separate slightly so each ball is free to go

A player could be classified as follows:

A C player (give him a ball in hand all three attempts), runs one rack, maybe reach the 8 ball and flunks
A B player (give him a ball in hand two trials), runs 1 rack for sure, maybe 2 racks
An A player, (give him a ball in hand for one attempt) runs 2 racks, plus
Any above A will runs 2 racks for sure without ball in hand, maybe more
Any above A will run three racks in three trial

9 ball combo does not count, or making 9 on the break, it goes up-sorry!
This is opinion only, i could be miss judging, any additional suggestions would help. Thanks.
 
At the OP, what do you look for when you're trying to gauge a player's skill level?

A couple of years ago, I joined a 9-ball team headed by a D+ player. I out shot him in 9-ball, which is why he asked me to join his team. He wanted me to recruit my B level friend. My B level friend needed to spend more time with his family, and less time playing pool, so my friend suggested another player (Ray) who was currently ranked as D, but had higher potential.

I pointed Ray out to my team captain, and after 15 minutes of watching turns to me and said "Why do we need another D player" "I haven't seen this guy make a hard shot yet". Within a year, Ray's ranking in the local tournaments jumped up to C+, B. My skill didn't improve with that team, and I remained as a D and left after three seasons.

Are you looking solely at shotmaking, what about position play (make the next shot easy), or safeties? See what a player does when he/she gets ball in hand.
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top