Plow Through Breaks?

lfigueroa said:

It's difficult to respect a position that goes contrary to the recollections of many who saw him in person multiple times and the available video record.

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Lou, I understand you. And I thank you for the restraint, because I know my (and others') viewpoint on this bugs you.

But even Bob has (or had?) the viewpoint that Mosconi had a slip stroke:
http://sfbilliards.com/articles/2005-10.pdf

Do you want to play like Willie Mosconi? Then you have to use the slip stroke, because he did. As shown in Diagram 1, during the backstroke, the hand slips back on the cue stick, then it grips the stick and the stick is brought forward as usual.

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I did see Willie perform an exhibition in the area where I was growing up in the 1970s, although I was too young -- in age, as well as my pool knowledge -- to even notice, or know what to look for in his mechanics. All I know is I saw a 100-ball run, on command. I wish I knew then what I know now.

But, in several videos of Willie, I see this very slip-and-regrip action. He doesn't use it all the time, of course. He seems to use it on power strokes -- especially break shots.

The below is an example (with time hack):

http://youtube.com/watch?v=1ts7YqHRrjc#t=6m20s

Notice on the pull back, the hand slipped backwards, regrips, and delivers the cue. (Willie also integrates a wrist-flop in there on this particular shot, but that is inconsequential to what we're talking about.)

He does the slip again in the very next shot:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ts7YqHRrjc#t=6m30s

Mind you, the slip is only a couple of inches -- a modest slip, but it's still there.

lfigueroa said:

And yes I have said before how it was amazing to watch his CB plow repeatedly into the rack as if there were a little engine inside the ball. And lastly, the CB does not care where your grip hand is or what it's doing, slip stroke or no.

Lou Figueroa

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Never said the cue ball "cares" where you grip the cue. Only the person delivering the cue, does. Forward force is forward force, no matter how it's applied behind the tip of the cue. And also I didn't say the power stroke in question "requires" a slip stroke. Only that a slip stroke seems to enhance it, or that a person who uses a slip stroke seems to really let the slip stroke out on this type of shot.

Obviously, a standard grip/stroke can also impart the same kind of power on the ball. I just found that, in my slip stroke days, I didn't have to put as much "oomph" to get the same amount of power.

And also, I agree with Bob that you want medium power on most break shots with top applied to the cue ball -- otherwise, the cue ball climbs up and over the rack like a monster truck.

-Sean

sfleinen said:

Lou, I understand you. And I thank you for the restraint, because I know my (and others') viewpoint on this bugs you.

But even Bob has (or had?) the viewpoint that Mosconi had a slip stroke:
http://sfbilliards.com/articles/2005-10.pdf



I did see Willie perform an exhibition in the area where I was growing up in the 1970s, although I was too young -- in age, as well as my pool knowledge -- to even notice, or know what to look for in his mechanics. All I know is I saw a 100-ball run, on command. I wish I knew then what I know now.

But, in several videos of Willie, I see this very slip-and-regrip action. He doesn't use it all the time, of course. He seems to use it on power strokes -- especially break shots.

The below is an example (with time hack):

http://youtube.com/watch?v=1ts7YqHRrjc#t=6m20s

Notice on the pull back, the hand slipped backwards, regrips, and delivers the cue. (Willie also integrates a wrist-flop in there on this particular shot, but that is inconsequential to what we're talking about.)

He does the slip again in the very next shot:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ts7YqHRrjc#t=6m30s

Mind you, the slip is only a couple of inches -- a modest slip, but it's still there.



Never said the cue ball "cares" where you grip the cue. Only the person delivering the cue, does. Forward force is forward force, no matter how it's applied behind the tip of the cue. And also I didn't say the power stroke in question "requires" a slip stroke. Only that a slip stroke seems to enhance it, or that a person who uses a slip stroke seems to really let the slip stroke out on this type of shot.

Obviously, a standard grip/stroke can also impart the same kind of power on the ball. I just found that, in my slip stroke days, I didn't have to put as much "oomph" to get the same amount of power.

And also, I agree with Bob that you want medium power on most break shots with top applied to the cue ball -- otherwise, the cue ball climbs up and over the rack like a monster truck.

-Sean

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I recall that as a result of our most recent discussion here, with its shot-by-shot analysis of the available video record, Bob said words to the effect that he would have to reconsider his stance. IOW, Bob is now not so sure he was right in that article. Maybe he'll pipe up.

Lou Figueroa

lfigueroa said:

AND, if you'll note, that on that shot -- 50 seconds into that vid -- he *does not* use a slip stroke, clearly finishing with his standard hand forward of perpendicular grip.

Lou Figueroa

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Lou:

Where your hand finishes (in relation to the perpendicular) has little to do with "proof" that the hand slipped on the grip or not -- especially on a modest slip stroke. The thing to look for where was his hand on the grip at cue ball address, and where is his hand on the grip after he hit the cue ball. You look at where his hand is on the grip, not where his hand is in relation to his elbow.

It's entirely possible -- and likely -- that most slip strokers will end up with their hand forward of the perpendicular. All the slip stroke did is reposition the cue itself forward of where it'd end up without a slip stroke.

-Sean

sfleinen said:

Lou:

Where your hand finishes (in relation to the perpendicular) has little to do with "proof" that the hand slipped on the grip or not -- especially on a modest slip stroke. The thing to look for where was his hand on the grip at cue ball address, and where is his hand on the grip after he hit the cue ball. You look at where his hand is on the grip, not where his hand is in relation to his elbow.

It's entirely possible -- and likely -- that most slip strokers will end up with their hand forward of the perpendicular. All the slip stroke did is reposition the cue itself forward of where it'd end up without a slip stroke.

-Sean

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Here's the discussion:

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=251005

Here's Bobs' comment:

"Watching the videos, I tend to agree that Mosconi did not use a slip stroke on all shots, but I think he does "adjust his grip" (however we want to call it) on power shots so he ends up gripping closer to perpendicular. For those of us who saw him shoot more trick shots than regular shots (sadly) he may have seemed to usually slip."

Lastly, my point about his grip hand was that it was near the very top of the wrap on his cue.

Lou Figueroa

lfigueroa said:

Here's the discussion:

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=251005

Here's Bobs' comment:

"Watching the videos, I tend to agree that Mosconi did not use a slip stroke on all shots, but I think he does "adjust his grip" (however we want to call it) on power shots so he ends up gripping closer to perpendicular. For those of us who saw him shoot more trick shots than regular shots (sadly) he may have seemed to usually slip."

Lastly, my point about his grip hand was that it was near the very top of the wrap on his cue.

Lou Figueroa

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Thanks for that link, Lou. Bob's comment is in post #44 of that thread.

Sadly, the video record of Willie playing only shows the table most times; full profile views of his stroke entering the camera view are rare. (In fact, in the "I've Got a Secret" clip, you only get to see Willie's right-side profile [where you get to see his stroke hand] a couple times.)

It's unfortunate -- I'd love to see more of Willie playing -- regardless of the slip stroke thing.

-Sean

sfleinen said:

Thanks for that link, Lou. Bob's comment is in post #44 of that thread.

Sadly, the video record of Willie playing only shows the table most times; full profile views of his stroke entering the camera view are rare. (In fact, in the "I've Got a Secret" clip, you only get to see Willie's right-side profile [where you get to see his stroke hand] a couple times.)

It's unfortunate -- I'd love to see more of Willie playing -- regardless of the slip stroke thing.

-Sean

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Yes, I also wish there were more video available. During the Caras match they mention that this is their second matchup -- the implication being that there is a tape out there, somewhere, of their first encounter, but I have never seen it.

So... we have what we have. And in the face of what's available on tape and given the recollections of those of us a bit older who saw him multiple times, any claim that Mosconi used a slip stroke is specious and flies in the face of what evidence we have today.

Lou Figueroa

I have no dog in this fight Lou but if you look here at this video ~6:20 Willy breaks a rack of 14.1. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ts7YqHRrjc He lines up and right before the stroke he regrips the cue slightly farther back on the cue, this regripping is what I always thought of as a slip stroke. This is clearly viewable in this video. Looks like Willie at least used a slip stroke for this demonstration.

elvicash said:

I have no dog in this fight Lou but if you look here at this video ~6:20 Willy breaks a rack of 14.1. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ts7YqHRrjc He lines up and right before the stroke he regrips the cue slightly farther back on the cue, this regripping is what I always thought of as a slip stroke. This is clearly viewable in this video. Looks like Willie at least used a slip stroke for this demonstration.

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My opinion as to whether Willie Mosconi used a slip stroke is based upon seeing him in person five times, give or take a time, in the late 60's early 70's. This was watching him play a match to 125 and then doing trick shots. My recollection is that I never saw him use a slip stroke.

I very quickly, on fast forward, just watched three videos, which I believe most of you can access one way or the other.

First, I watched Mosconi vs Caras at the Lakeshore Athelitic Club in Chicago in 1963. Caras wins 125-26. In that video I counted 18 shots where Mosconi was definitely not using a slip stroke or late grip adjustment. Six shots, where because of the camera angle, I couldn't determine what he did.

Next, I watched the Mosconi Straight Pool Break Shot video from 1980 in which he runs 28 balls. On 20 shots he does not use a slip stroke or last second grip adjustment. On seven shots the camera angle does not allow a determination. And on one shot *maybe* he does a last minute grip adjustment or slip stroke.

Last I watched the I've Got a Secret video.from '62. I counted three shots where he either did a last minute grip adjustment, or perhaps a slip stroke. On four shots he does not. And on eight shots you can't tell. On the two trick shots he shoots (six-on-one and the RR Shot) he does not use a slip stroke.

So what do you have after all that? Three, perhaps four shots on TV -- in a non-competive setting -- in which, maybe, he used a slip stroke and 42 shots where he didn't and another 21 where we can't tell (but he probably didn't), plus my recollection of his shooting over 600 balls in competitive exhibition play and however many times Dale saw him play, from which neither of us recall a slip stroke.

I don't know what was going on those three shots. Maybe it was a new cue or he had just got it rewrapped and it was slippery, or the TV lights affected him, or he was just goofing. We dont know. But from the vast preponderance of evidence -- video and eye witness -- Willie Mosconi did not use a slip stroke.

Lou Figueroa

BilliardsAbout said:

I'm getting confused here.

Bob Jewett has called it a slip stroke on the backstroke and a stroke slip on the forward stroke. In my book and website I call it a slip stroke on the backstroke and a reverse slip stroke on the forward stroke.

Which are we saying Mosconi did/didn't do?

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Matt:

Here again -- as in your posts in the Ask the Instructor section -- you are making up new terms for which the industry already has (and had, for decades) a term applied.

Think of the two words "slip" and "stroke." That's exactly how a slip stroke works; on the back stroke you slip, regrip, and stroke forward.

Now think of the two words "stroke" and "slip." In this one, you pull the cue back, stroke forward, and, with a light grip, let the momentum of the cue slip forward through your grip hand -- sort of like jettisoning the cue through your hand, like a spear.

What's being debated here (I don't like to use the word argue -- you *are* in the 14.1 forum afterall, and we're a little more respectful here) is the former -- whether Mosconi used a slip stroke. (Again, "slip," regrip, and then "stroke.") I don't believe anyone here will argue about Mosconi using the latter -- a "stroke slip" -- because he didn't.

Please get the terms right. They've been out in the industry long before you came on the scene (publishing-wise).

And FYI, when certain folks (like myself) say "Mosconi used a slip stroke" -- it doesn't mean he used it on "every shot" (like, say, Cowboy Jimmy Moore). Rather, it's a technique, a tool, and like a hammer, you use it when you feel it's appropriate. Not as if "everything looks like a nail."

-Sean

BilliardsAbout said:

You are right, this is not a debate forum, so please take my remarks in the kind spirit in which they are intended when I tell you there was no need to be so perjorative towards me. 1) There are examples with photos of slip strokes and stroke slips on my site but your tone reads like I've never heard of the concept. 2) Mr. Jewett's remarks about what he called a "stroke slip" was his using a term in a publication of limited readership, in which he said, "this is what I call it...". If you were around at that time, did you send him an angry note accusing him of hijacking standard terms? And just how did a magazine article "create" a standard term that I should know about anyway? Via my psychic ability, perhaps?

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Here's the difference: the term "stroke slip" existed before Bob's article. There've been articles about it in billiards periodicals before. It's not like Bob said "I call this technique 'stroke slip'" or "I will refer to this as 'stroke slip'" as if he coined it. He just uses the term as it already exists in the industry.

And yes, part of due diligence is a little bit of research to find out if the term you want to "coin," already exists. Is it that hard to type the phrase "slip stroke" into any search engine, and read what comes up? And oh lookie, not only does Bob's article come up, but also Dr. Dave's website, which you are so fond of quoting or citing references to! And in both sources, the term "stroke slip" is there to refer to the very thing that you try to coin a term for.

BilliardsAbout said:

Feel free to reply to me by PM or e-mail if you want to discuss further so we're neither hijacking this thread nor debating on this forum. I'll post another question next so we can get back to business. Thanks.

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I will, but nevertheless a reply to the incorrect and sarcastic part of your post was warranted.

-Sean

BilliardsAbout said:

Oy vey!

If I don't know people call something a "stroke slip" I'll never be able to find it on Google...!

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That's not what I said -- please reread. What I said, is if you google "slip stroke" -- you would've come across "stroke slip" in the process (in the very same articles, no less).

-Sean

A great stroke

I have seen this type of break shot many times over the years by Leroy Kinman and no one else. The cue would make contact with the rack & push it's way through the rack in a unbelievable way. From watching him, I have come to an opinion that there are players that can put a super amount of high right follow on a cue. Way more than other players can. There is no trick to it, it is just the way that player gets the action to perforn that shot. I have tired to pull this shot off and I can not get the cue ball to react like Leroy. It is really a beautiful shot to watch take place.

14-1StraightMan said:

I have seen this type of break shot many times over the years by Leroy Kinman and no one else. The cue would make contact with the rack & push it's way through the rack in a unbelievable way. From watching him, I have come to an opinion that there are players that can put a super amount of high right follow on a cue. Way more than other players can. There is no trick to it, it is just the way that player gets the action to perforn that shot. I have tired to pull this shot off and I can not get the cue ball to react like Leroy. It is really a beautiful shot to watch take place.

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Another player that is very good at having the cue ball plow through the rack with a powerful follow stroke is New York's own Tony Robles, one of pool's finest players as well as one of its finest gentlemen.

I discussed this shot with Tony in the late 1990's, and unless my memory is failing me, Tony indicated that it is best utilized when the natural path of the cue ball is square into a single ball in the rack. He did not advocate this shot if the cue ball was going to hit the rack between two of the balls in the fornt of the rack.