Willie Mosconi - I've got a secret

Weird, this link was just posted by Rich93 in the thread about how the 526 ended.

One thing I noticed was that near the end Willie "instinctively" went to shot the 13 ball to leave the 9 ball for a break shot but apparently then realized he didn't need to leave a break shot and shot the 9 instead. :grin:

Grip hand ahead of elbow at address rather than directly below the elbow.

His first shot after the breakshot you can see the slip stroke. His hand slides about four inches backwards just before he pulls the trigger.

JohnnyP said:

His first shot after the breakshot you can see the slip stroke. His hand slides about four inches backwards just before he pulls the trigger.

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Yes, but not on all shots.

This is still Mosconi after his stroke (1957?) and some say that Wiilie never reached his full speed again after the stroke. As I was born in 1958, I'm in no position to confirm whether or not this is true.

sjm said:

This is still Mosconi after his stroke (1957?) and some say that Wiilie never reached his full speed again after the stroke. As I was born in 1958, I'm in no position to confirm whether or not this is true.

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I remember reading he recovered enough to win another World Championship. In his remaining years he didn't look like someone who suffered a stroke.

I'd love to find a full video of his first 1941 championship, especially to see the final five bank shot.

I notice on several shots that Willie's cue went up in the air after hitting with a follow shot. With a few lessons to correct this he could have been a good player, LOL.
I actually notice this same stroke by several players at the 14.1 championships in New Jersey this year.

kaznj said:

I notice on several shots that Willie's cue went up in the air after hitting with a follow shot. With a few lessons to correct this he could have been a good player, LOL.
I actually notice this same stroke by several players at the 14.1 championships in New Jersey this year.

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It just looks to me that his cue is going up because he is coming off the shot and the cue is just coming up as he removes his bridge hand. But note though, that as fast as Willie played he really stays down until the balls are well on there way and has a very smooth follow through - "It's like butter."

poolmouse said:

I remember reading he recovered enough to win another World Championship. In his remaining years he didn't look like someone who suffered a stroke.

I'd love to find a full video of his first 1941 championship, especially to see the final five bank shot.

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The first minute or so of the link below shows the five rail shot to win the 1941 championship. It's obviously a re-creation of the actual shot, presumably done for a newsreel shown in movie theaters. You can tell it's a re-creation because of the very bad acting of Willie and Ponzi.

I've seen a longer version of this where right before the final shot Willie is handed a note announcing the birth of his son and he writes on the scoreboard "It's a boy!". He then joyfully fires the 5 rail bank. A bit over the top.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=RnAXGj9KlJE

I remember a Minnesota Fats TV show from when I was a kid. He had various guests and they competed some and did a few tricks. Fats sure could run his mouth, his pratter was impressive. Masconi and Irving Crane seemed to have some grudge with Fats and they appeared angry, at least to a kid. Inspired me to go downstairs and try to run some balls (like my Dad would) and I'm happy to have the pool bug to this day (and running a rack is usually more than challenge). It'd be great to see some of those old shows again, but they're probably lost somewheres in the archives.

Cameron Smith said:

This is the earliest footage I have seen of Willie playing pool. It's from 1962 and after the game show portion finishes he's asked to run 15 balls.

I have seen a match between Jimmy Caras and Willie from the early 60's but Willie doesn't play much at all in it.

Anyways the actual shooting starts at 6:00

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ts7YqHRrjc&feature=feedf

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Not bad for live television.

FWIW, this is the Mosconi I saw, watching him play in exhibitions around the Bay Area (SF) late 60's early 70's. The clip brought back a lot of memories about how elegant he looked, how fast and fluid he was, and how he looked better at the table than any other player. They catch him at the right angle on a couple of shots and, to me, he just looks like a stone cold killer.

Lou Figueroa

What's impressive to me is the host told Willie to "go ahead and throw 15 balls up" and Willie preferred the 14.1 break shot instead. Back in the day, live tv WAS LIVE TV. It's fascinating how he declined the gimmie putt and chose the harder of the two and then proceeded to run out flawlessly.

Dave

There were a couple of things interesting to me on the break shot. First is that slip stroke which someone already mentioned. Also, he puts a definite wrist snap into the shot on contact. In addition, he hit what looked like a pretty significant amount of outside english on the break, although the cue ball didn't seem to behave that way coming off the side rail. With that much right english I would've expected the cue ball to bounce to the right coming off the side rail.

I mention these things because the wrist snap and outside english are two things that some physicists say are not helpful and are actually counterproductive. More lately I tend to listen more to the guys who can run lots of balls.

Oh, I forgot to mention how those pockets are like peach baskets and if Efren or even SVB were playing on that table they'd have run out twice as fast as Willie did it, or they might even sink two balls at a time instead of Willie's just one. :smile:

Two things I noticed (besides the wrist snap on the break and the modest slip stroke) --

Without hesitating he gets rid of the one problem ball immediately after the break by caroming the object ball off the ball that was in a bad position by the side pocket.

Second, he hits softly only when he absolutely has to. Look at the 4th shot after the break. Instead of softly rolling the ball he stuns it forward to the exact position he wanted. Harder to control unless you're really good at it.

I remember very little from having seen him play in person around this same era, but one thing I do remember is the following. In person he appeared to be gripping the cue more or less tightly on his one or two practice swings and then he opened up with the wrist on the actual stroke. I remember thinking this was odd because his little red instruction book showed showed him gripping delicately with the pinky finger sticking out, and that wasn't how he played at all. What I didn't see then is that he actually slides his hand backward a couple of inches on the final backswing and that can't help but loosen up the grip. His slip is so modest that you don't see it unless you're looking for it. And you would think it would be pretty hard to control .... but he's Mosconi.

That was very cool for live TV. I did notice he was going to play for a break shot and then didn't. And this was after his stroke? Wow!

Wow thanks for the link. Watching him play that rack almost has me wanting to go out at 1:30 am to find a pool hall. lol.

Cameron Smith said:

...
I have seen a match between Jimmy Caras and Willie from the early 60's but Willie doesn't play much at all in it.
...

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Do you have the link with the Caras match?

Thanks.

I remember a thread once debating whether he had a slip stroke. At the beginning of that rack you can see it, 6:30 of the video. Irrefutable evidence he used a slip stroke.