European (conical taper) vs Pro Taper (straight taper)

bdcues

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Joey, are you going to vouch for my teaching ability far and wide if I open your eyes far and wide on this topic? With a conical taper, snooker players more readily appreciate the taper's affects on each shot because of their open bridges. If a shaft is conically tapered rather than an even pro taper, the center of the cue tip RAISES in position relative to the cloth and you can observe the effects for yourself by experimenting with an open bridge. Now since we use closed bridges quite a bit over here, if the parts of your hand guiding the cue's path are unevenly distributed laterally, then this RAISING effect is translated into LATERAL movement of the cue tip during follow through. Take a rigid guide made in a v-shape and turn the v slightly sideways so that when a conical object passes through it it is pushed more to the side the "v" tips toward. Also, add to that a v-shaped guide that is softer on one side than the other and this magnifies the effect. Make the conical object (shaft) big enough and eventually the diameter will eventually push the shaft right off the guide onto the cloth. In a game of precision, imagine the ill-effects on aiming at eight feet. There really isn't much more to understand about this. I have never, ever seen anyone else mention this in print or in person, and when I teach someone to bridge I mention this always. Does this knowledge get me comped into a BCA teaching certificate? Anyone?

I would tend to disagree. First, if what you were saying is true than most 3CB players would never make a ball, in a sport that accuracy of cue ball striking is of utmost importance. Second, if the tip is positioned within 1" or so of the cue ball before striking than the diameter change from there to contact, even on a straight taper such as a house cue, is only about .012". Halve this for the movement on one side of your bridge and you get .006". There are not many shots your going to miss by moving your OB contact point .006". Take a shaft with a more parabolic taper and that number may be even lower than .001" depending on bridge length. How much the shaft rises after you hit the ball is irrelevant except from a personal comfort point of view and that is something open to change. If your theory was correct than how could anyone make a ball with a house cue as they generally have the fastest rate of rise? Like most other parts of pool and aiming at some point if your paying attention to what is happening your brain will adjust your aiming point to where you make the ball instead of missing so any movement, such as your talking, makes no difference anyway, you simply move your intended aiming point until the ball gets pocketed.

Kilby was the one I turned to to test my laminated shafts many years ago. I created different shafts that he put his unique taper on to see which version created the most power. As Ron states, vibration is wasted power. For my 2cents worth, the cue should go through the cue ball, not buckle like a noodle and the amount of "work", as I call it, is the first thing I look for in my finished cues. I am looking for how much energy is lost or gained while striking the CB.


Bob Danielson
www.bdcuesandcomix.com
 

hunger strike

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
wedge in a tilted groove....

Hunger Strike,
Could you please elaborate some more about your theory? I want to make sure i understand exactly what you are saying.
Thanks!
JoeyA

If you had a guide for the cue, say a v-shaped piece of metal with each side of the V being one centimeter long, and you had the V pointing straight upward and you ran a conically tapered rod through it, the tip would "raise" (English description) as the tapered rod slides through the guide. The same thing happens when you turn the V guide sideways. Tilt the metal guide 40 degrees sideways and the raising of the tip will raise from the guide in a line 40 degrees relative to the table. So the tip goes somewhat sideways possibly causing a miss or unintended spin. The other poster is right, a conically tapered billiard cue has a really efficient hit. If you play billiards with a pool cue then go to a billiard cue, you'll be surprised at the hit, especially if the billiard cue has a smaller tip. So with that efficiency you don't have to slide the cue as far to get the same energy. Just remember to tune your bridge so that the guide it provides does not have more pressure or relative tilt to one side. Did I make that more understandable? Hope so, I am trying to help.
 

hunger strike

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Let me clarify myself

I would tend to disagree. First, if what you were saying is true than most 3CB players would never make a ball, in a sport that accuracy of cue ball striking is of utmost importance. Second, if the tip is positioned within 1" or so of the cue ball before striking than the diameter change from there to contact, even on a straight taper such as a house cue, is only about .012". Halve this for the movement on one side of your bridge and you get .006". There are not many shots your going to miss by moving your OB contact point .006". Take a shaft with a more parabolic taper and that number may be even lower than .001" depending on bridge length. How much the shaft rises after you hit the ball is irrelevant except from a personal comfort point of view and that is something open to change. If your theory was correct than how could anyone make a ball with a house cue as they generally have the fastest rate of rise? Like most other parts of pool and aiming at some point if your paying attention to what is happening your brain will adjust your aiming point to where you make the ball instead of missing so any movement, such as your talking, makes no difference anyway, you simply move your intended aiming point until the ball gets pocketed.

Kilby was the one I turned to to test my laminated shafts many years ago. I created different shafts that he put his unique taper on to see which version created the most power. As Ron states, vibration is wasted power. For my 2cents worth, the cue should go through the cue ball, not buckle like a noodle and the amount of "work", as I call it, is the first thing I look for in my finished cues. I am looking for how much energy is lost or gained while striking the CB.


Bob Danielson
www.bdcuesandcomix.com

I am not saying that this effect will always happen, just that it can if the closed bridge is formed improperly. Remember seeing Sang Lee turn his closed bridge hand more squarely with the shot? I believe he was making his guide more even side-to-side. A conical taper can be a great cue, I am just trying to give Joey some insight as to possible pitfalls with it. Just watch a Sang Lee tape Joey. Keep in mind, nobody would use a tilted open bridge, but uneven pressure or angle in a closed bridge has effects that are not so obvious by just looking.
 

hunger strike

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Freeform butterfly cue.....

Joey, you certainly may use my input -- t'ain't original, just physics...

Your website features one of your designs called the freeform butterfly. I have an antique cue that is at least 100 years old, probably more, that has this same veneer technique as well as other butterflies in the design. It came from a German castle. I wondered if anyone would be brilliant enough to come up with this design. Congratulations on a brilliantly designed cue. It's like the two guys who invented calculus independently~ only this time 100 years apart. This is a very cool cue you have made.
 

ShootingArts

Smorg is giving St Peter the 7!
Gold Member
Silver Member
a couple little details

I am not saying that this effect will always happen, just that it can if the closed bridge is formed improperly. Remember seeing Sang Lee turn his closed bridge hand more squarely with the shot? I believe he was making his guide more even side-to-side. A conical taper can be a great cue, I am just trying to give Joey some insight as to possible pitfalls with it. Just watch a Sang Lee tape Joey. Keep in mind, nobody would use a tilted open bridge, but uneven pressure or angle in a closed bridge has effects that are not so obvious by just looking.

Two things I would like to point out:

One, as mentioned by others, the effect isn't significant. Even if you are tracking the cue tip to aim the cue, something very few people acknowledge doing, the movement to the side isn't significant.

The second and more important point is that regardless of any movement to the side, top, or any angle, as long as the cue ball and the bridge remain stationary the tip returns to the exact same point each time.

Most people address the cue ball with the tip within an inch or less. The only sideways movement from where you address the cue ball would be in this distance plus another inch or less of travel tha the cue ball is in contact with the tip. Sideways movement would be 1/2 the taper for about two inches or less worst case for most shooters using an open bridge. With the shaft supported to some degree from multiple directions with a closed bridge the effect is even less.

Typical shaft tapers are simply a nonissue in terms of affecting practical accuracy.

Hu
 

hunger strike

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Question of the thread author....

Two things I would like to point out:

One, as mentioned by others, the effect isn't significant. Even if you are tracking the cue tip to aim the cue, something very few people acknowledge doing, the movement to the side isn't significant.

The second and more important point is that regardless of any movement to the side, top, or any angle, as long as the cue ball and the bridge remain stationary the tip returns to the exact same point each time.

Most people address the cue ball with the tip within an inch or less. The only sideways movement from where you address the cue ball would be in this distance plus another inch or less of travel tha the cue ball is in contact with the tip. Sideways movement would be 1/2 the taper for about two inches or less worst case for most shooters using an open bridge. With the shaft supported to some degree from multiple directions with a closed bridge the effect is even less.

Typical shaft tapers are simply a nonissue in terms of affecting practical accuracy.

Hu[/QUOTE
..... but it IS an issue with regard to imparting side spin, which was part of Joey's original question. And unintentional side spin can make shots miss, especially with performance shafts that magnify it and large, tight-pocketed tables that punish it. Having the tip start out at a particular aiming point on the cueball, then swerving to the side ever so slightly has been described as backhand english, has a long history. Earl Shriver taught it to Eddie Taylor, and Bert Kinister made tapes of it. Pinching balls is accomplished by it. Phenolic balls are stickier than their shiny appearance makes you think, and inadvertent english makes balls swerve. This in turn affects accuracy. But a good bridge, now that makes it a non-issue.
 

JoeyA

Efren's Mini-Tourn BACKER
Silver Member
If you had a guide for the cue, say a v-shaped piece of metal with each side of the V being one centimeter long, and you had the V pointing straight upward and you ran a conically tapered rod through it, the tip would "raise" (English description) as the tapered rod slides through the guide. The same thing happens when you turn the V guide sideways. Tilt the metal guide 40 degrees sideways and the raising of the tip will raise from the guide in a line 40 degrees relative to the table. So the tip goes somewhat sideways possibly causing a miss or unintended spin. The other poster is right, a conically tapered billiard cue has a really efficient hit. If you play billiards with a pool cue then go to a billiard cue, you'll be surprised at the hit, especially if the billiard cue has a smaller tip. So with that efficiency you don't have to slide the cue as far to get the same energy. Just remember to tune your bridge so that the guide it provides does not have more pressure or relative tilt to one side. Did I make that more understandable? Hope so, I am trying to help.

Yes, I understand what you are saying perfectly. Thanks!
JoeyA
 

TATE

AzB Gold Mensch
Silver Member
Can a straight taper (pro taper) or a European taper (conical taper) have a different effect on the player's ability to shoot the cue ball (even a small amount), straighter?

Can a straight taper or a conical taper allow a player to put more or less English on the cue ball, (even a small amount).

If so, how?

Thanks,
JoeyA



Joey,

Just want to make a point - neither the OB Classic Pro or the Tiger Pro X (which are both very similar) have a conical taper. They have a modified pro taper, which is a nice way of saying they have two tapers, one to about 16" from the tip, then one from there to the tip. What makes it modified is the taper is greater than a typical 1mm pro taper. The OB is slightly thicker than the Tiger Pro X, so it's stiffer and has a little more mass.

Another reason why I think the OB is stiffer is because there are a lot more laminations in it, more glue surface, and the way it's laminated creates resistance to lateral bending.

Basically, the stiffness having a smaller tip definitely makes a difference in what happens to a cue ball.

Chris
 
Last edited:

JoeyA

Efren's Mini-Tourn BACKER
Silver Member
Joey,

Just want to make a point - neither the OB Classic Pro or the Tiger Pro X (which are both very similar) have a conical taper. They have a modified pro taper, which is a nice way of saying they have two tapers, one to about 16" from the tip, then one from there to the tip. What makes it modified is the taper is greater than a typical 1mm pro taper. The OB is slightly thicker than the Tiger Pro X, so it's stiffer and has a little more mass.

Another reason why I think the OB is stiffer is because there are a lot more laminations in it, more glue surface, and the way it's laminated creates resistance to lateral bending.

Basically, the stiffness having a smaller tip definitely makes a difference in what happens to a cue ball.

Chris

Chris,

I don't know what makes a conical taper except that the taper is cone shaped meaning that the taper increases every inch of length.

I've always thought of a pro taper as a straight taper, where the taper is "straight" or the same for a certain number of inches, like 10 or 12" or in Earl Strickland's cue (made by Mike Gullyassy) 24" etc.

You made me pull out the digital caliper by Cen-Tech and measure my new OB Classic Pro. :D The OB Classic Pro is conically tapered starting at 11.8 and going up .10 mm for at least the first few inches then increase to 13.4 mm at 10". To me, that's a conical taper.

I've been playing in tournaments and gambling with the news OB Classic Pro since I got it so for now it's my shaft of choice.

The short light ferrule helps lower the cue ball squirt and I like playing with it.

I'm now wondering if you are thinking about the OB Classic which is the slightly larger OB shaft, I think 12.75 mm at the ferrule (going from memory).

Anyway, I think cue shafts are just like automobiles, one for each of us. I've got a buddy who loves playing with a CONICAL taper starting out at 13.0MM at the ferrule and getting bigger fast. lol He plays pretty darn good too.

If my info is off, please dont' hesitate to square me away. I like to keep up with all of the latest terminology and if it's changing, I need to catch up. :)
Thanks,
JoeyA
 

kilby

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Your website features one of your designs called the freeform butterfly. I have an antique cue that is at least 100 years old, probably more, that has this same veneer technique as well as other butterflies in the design. It came from a German castle. I wondered if anyone would be brilliant enough to come up with this design. Congratulations on a brilliantly designed cue. It's like the two guys who invented calculus independently~ only this time 100 years apart. This is a very cool cue you have made.

Thanks. I began building that design a few years ago. It is a bit too extreme for some players, but it has itss following and they are very fun to build ("like a box of chocolates, you don't know what you'll get until...")!
 

TATE

AzB Gold Mensch
Silver Member
Chris,

I don't know what makes a conical taper except that the taper is cone shaped meaning that the taper increases every inch of length.

I've always thought of a pro taper as a straight taper, where the taper is "straight" or the same for a certain number of inches, like 10 or 12" or in Earl Strickland's cue (made by Mike Gullyassy) 24" etc.

You made me pull out the digital caliper by Cen-Tech and measure my new OB Classic Pro. :D The OB Classic Pro is conically tapered starting at 11.8 and going up .10 mm for at least the first few inches then increase to 13.4 mm at 10". To me, that's a conical taper.

I've been playing in tournaments and gambling with the news OB Classic Pro since I got it so for now it's my shaft of choice.

The short light ferrule helps lower the cue ball squirt and I like playing with it.

I'm now wondering if you are thinking about the OB Classic which is the slightly larger OB shaft, I think 12.75 mm at the ferrule (going from memory).

Anyway, I think cue shafts are just like automobiles, one for each of us. I've got a buddy who loves playing with a CONICAL taper starting out at 13.0MM at the ferrule and getting bigger fast. lol He plays pretty darn good too.

If my info is off, please dont' hesitate to square me away. I like to keep up with all of the latest terminology and if it's changing, I need to catch up. :)
Thanks,
JoeyA

Joey,

Sorry, I am confusing it with my memory of the OB Classic. I'm not sure what the OB2 or OB Classic Pro measure on the taper - Royce could answer that.

I know the Tiger Pro X, which is similar, is not exactly conical - it has two different tapers, one from the joint to 16" and a slightly reduced taper from 16" to the tip.

Most "pro" tapers have a slight taper - say 1 mm, from 14"to 16" from the tip to the ferrule.

Shafts that have no taper from 16" to the tip are usually very flexible.

Chris
 

Str8PoolPlayer

“1966 500 SuperFast”
Silver Member
I own and play with both types of Shafts from various Custom Cuemakers
and seem to control the Cue Ball pretty much the same with either type.

Obviously, I am NOT a Professional, and that's just my personal experience.
 

bulletjr

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I am seeing a big difference in conical taper and straight taper. 13mm conical taper has way more deflection than my brain can compensate for. I changed cues and started playing with a 13mm conical vs 12.75 straight taper 18". I was so amazed at the amount of deflection with the conical vs my long taper. Judd told me something a year ago that I finally see now. WOW. I am 10 times more accurate with the long taper.
 

genomachino

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Laminated shafts were game changers...........

Can a straight taper (pro taper) or a European taper (conical taper) have a different effect on the player's ability to shoot the cue ball (even a small amount), straighter?

Can a straight taper or a conical taper allow a player to put more or less English on the cue ball, (even a small amount).

If so, how?

Thanks,
JoeyA

Back when there were only non laminated shafts some cue makers would try to make the hit stiffer by not having much of a taper. Shuller was one of these.

The problem was that the cue played so much different that it was hard for a player to adjust to the things that would happen much like going from conventional to laminated shafts.

Hardly nobody played with a 12mm years back because it was like playing with a fish pole especially if you tried to put a pro taper of about 14 inches on it. The flex would be to much to handle.

Me personally, I went to the laminated shaft so i could have that nice thin shaft that would fit nice through my bridge and i could have that 14 inch taper.

The laminated shafts today kind of play like those Shullers did except with the laminated shafts you can have that nice slim shaft.

Shuller had the right idea but the shaft getting bigger so quick really effected my stroke. At one point your at 12.5 mm and then at the end of the stroke you would be at 15mm.

With the laminated shaft you got the best of both worlds. Nice thin shaft that fits in your bridge from start to finish and a true hit with less deflection like Mr shuller was trying to do.

That's just my oppinion.
 

naji

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Find something about shaft taper

If you had a guide for the cue, say a v-shaped piece of metal with each side of the V being one centimeter long, and you had the V pointing straight upward and you ran a conically tapered rod through it, the tip would "raise" (English description) as the tapered rod slides through the guide. The same thing happens when you turn the V guide sideways. Tilt the metal guide 40 degrees sideways and the raising of the tip will raise from the guide in a line 40 degrees relative to the table. So the tip goes somewhat sideways possibly causing a miss or unintended spin. The other poster is right, a conically tapered billiard cue has a really efficient hit. If you play billiards with a pool cue then go to a billiard cue, you'll be surprised at the hit, especially if the billiard cue has a smaller tip. So with that efficiency you don't have to slide the cue as far to get the same energy. Just remember to tune your bridge so that the guide it provides does not have more pressure or relative tilt to one side. Did I make that more understandable? Hope so, I am trying to help.

hunger strike, thanks for explaining it, there is a new post going on, i came up to same conclusion, except i did not realize side shifting, i have never seen your post before, i search Google and here it is already been discussed. Reason i search is Patrick Johnson is not convinced, and want to put an end to it, either he is right or i am write.

English, Rick here is more reading material for you---sorry.
 
Last edited:

ChopStick

Unsane Poster
Silver Member
The other poster is right, a conically tapered billiard cue has a really efficient hit. If you play billiards with a pool cue then go to a billiard cue, you'll be surprised at the hit, especially if the billiard cue has a smaller tip.

That is exactly what happened to me last week which is why I am searching the forum for information about it. It was absolutely astounding. Way more accurate both in perception and reality.
 

Houstoer

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I don't know but I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if Dr. Dave hasn't already done the research on this !
 
Top