Go Back   AzBilliards.com > Main Category > Main Forum
Reload this Page Follow Up to Dr. Dave's Experiment - Novus 1 vs Aramith
Reply
 
Share Thread Tools Rating: Thread Rating: 2 votes, 5.00 average.
Follow Up to Dr. Dave's Experiment - Novus 1 vs Aramith
Old
  (#1)
Dan White
AzB Silver Member
Dan White has a reputation beyond reputeDan White has a reputation beyond reputeDan White has a reputation beyond reputeDan White has a reputation beyond reputeDan White has a reputation beyond reputeDan White has a reputation beyond reputeDan White has a reputation beyond reputeDan White has a reputation beyond reputeDan White has a reputation beyond reputeDan White has a reputation beyond reputeDan White has a reputation beyond repute
 
Dan White's Avatar
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 2,298
vCash: 500
iTrader: 2 / 100%
Join Date: Oct 2005
   
Follow Up to Dr. Dave's Experiment - Novus 1 vs Aramith - 01-24-2015, 11:40 AM

I have been using Novus 1 for cleaning balls in my ball machine for the last couple of years, based on recommendations I saw in AZB. I came across Dr. Dave's video on throw with various ball cleaners, and it got me to wondering how Novus 1 matched up (Dave didn't test Novus 1). The other cleaner I have is the cream from Aramith, which you would assume is the best thing to use since they make the balls. I never liked using Aramith because it is thick and flaky and seems like it would gum up a ball machine quickly. Also, it is a mess to apply. Novus, on the other hand, can be diluted and easily sprayed on the balls in the machine. After doing this experiment, I am a little up in the air as to what the "right" cleaner is. It would seem that consistency is important, which in my experiment favors Aramith. What cleaners are used in tournaments? Is there a standard? What is used in the 14.1 events, where slipperiness can have a great impact on how well balls open?


PURPOSE OF MY EXPERIMENT

Originally, I just wanted to see where Novus fit in compared to Dave's results. However, I began to see something odd, so I decided to take Dave's experiment one step further. For each ball in my experiment, I shot it over and over to see if the amount of throw changed over time. Typically I shot each ball at least 20 times. I did find some interesting changes (summarized below).

First, take a look at Dave's video to see the experimental set up:

http://billiards.colostate.edu/norma...new/NVD-16.htm


SUMMARY OF RESULTS

For those of you who want the short version, here are my results. Note that I hit the balls a little harder than Dave did so that makes sense that I got slightly less throw with Aramith than Dave did:

1. When I cleaned the balls with Aramith (and buffed them in the ball machine) I found that throw started out at 2 inches, and within 8 to 10 trials, the throw increased to 4 inches, and remained there.

2. When I cleaned the balls with Novus 1 (and buffed them in the ball machine) I found that throw started out at just under 2 inches and took about 20 trials to reach 4 inches of throw. I also found that the amount of throw was inconsistent, as in the throw would go up to 3 or 4 inches, and then come back down to 2.5 inches for several trials, and then go back up to 4 inches.

3. I noted that since my ball cleaner has been using Novus 1 cleaner for a long time, the padding may be impregnated with residual Novus, which could impact the results of the Aramith test (item 1 above). So I cleaned more balls by hand with Aramith and only buffed them until shiny with a cotton cloth. I did not put them in the ball machine. In this case, the throw was consistent at 5 inches the entire time (over 20 tries).


CONCLUSIONS/RECOMMENDATIONS

There is a clear difference in throw between using Aramith cleaned by hand and Novus 1 cleaned in a ball machine. The Aramith throws very consistently at 5 inches, even from the very first shot, whereas the Novus 1 throws inconsistently, and changes dramatically after fewer than 10 rolls up and down the table (10 trials). Novus "tops out" at a throw around 4 inches, but is still inconsistent well after 20 tries.

It seems to me that Aramith is the way to go since it provides consistency. I find that when using Novus 1, the balls open up more easily than when using Aramith. I wonder whether this is an "unfair" advantage, akin to spraying silicone on the balls. I would be interested to hear what is being used in tournament play. I believe it is wise to learn how to play under various playing conditions, but knowing how the balls were cleaned can help a player gauge how much the throw conditions are likely to change.


RESULTS

For brevity, I am not going to include all data normally called for in a scientific test. Suffice to say that everything was new and clean (didn't touch the balls with my hands at any time), and that I did what I could to maintain consistency from trial to trial.

Aramith cleaned in ball machine (3 sets of balls were used and the balls were placed in the same frozen position on hole reinforcers, and the same ball was sent up the table each time):

Trial 1 (inches of throw):
2,2,3,3.5,2.5,3,4,4,4,4,3,4,4,4,4,4,4,4,4,4

Trial 2:
3,2.5,2,3,3,3,3,3,4,4,3,3.5,4,4,4,4,4,4.5,4.25,3.5 ,4.5,4

Trial 3:
2,3,3.25,3,3.75,3,3,4,3.5,2.75,4,3.75,3.75,3.5,4,4 ,4,4,4.5,4

Novus 1 cleaned in ball machine:

Trial 1:
1.75,2,2.5,2,2,2.25,2.25,2.5,2.25,2,2.75,3,2.5,2.7 5,3,2.5,3,3,3,3.5,4,3.75,4,3.5,3.25,3.25,3,4,2.75, 5,4,4,4,4

Trial 2:
2,1.5,2,2,2,2,2.5,2.5,2.5,2,2,3,4,2.5,2.5,3,2,2,4, 2,2,3,2.5,2.5,2.5,4,4,4,4,4,5,4,3.75,3.75,4,2.5,3, 3.5

Trial 3:
1.5,2,2,2 (abandoned test after verifying the low throw with unused balls)


Aramith balls cleaned by hand, no ball machine:

Trial 1:
5,5,5,5.5,5,5.5,5,5,5,5,5,5.5,5,5.75,5,5.5,6,5.5,5 ,5.5,5,5

Trial 2:
5 (abandoned after seeing that second set of hand cleaned balls started at 5 inches of throw)
Attached Images
 


Dan White

Last edited by Dan White; 01-24-2015 at 05:25 PM.
  
Reply With Quote

Old
  (#2)
dr_dave
Instructional Author
dr_dave has a reputation beyond reputedr_dave has a reputation beyond reputedr_dave has a reputation beyond reputedr_dave has a reputation beyond reputedr_dave has a reputation beyond reputedr_dave has a reputation beyond reputedr_dave has a reputation beyond reputedr_dave has a reputation beyond reputedr_dave has a reputation beyond reputedr_dave has a reputation beyond reputedr_dave has a reputation beyond repute
 
dr_dave's Avatar
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 8,129
vCash: 1700
iTrader: 4 / 100%
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Colorado
   
01-25-2015, 01:53 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan White View Post
I have been using Novus 1 for cleaning balls in my ball machine for the last couple of years, based on recommendations I saw in AZB. I came across Dr. Dave's video on throw with various ball cleaners, and it got me to wondering how Novus 1 matched up (Dave didn't test Novus 1).
...

First, take a look at Dave's video to see the experimental set up:

http://billiards.colostate.edu/norma...new/NVD-16.htm

SUMMARY OF RESULTS

For those of you who want the short version, here are my results. Note that I hit the balls a little harder than Dave did so that makes sense that I got slightly less throw with Aramith than Dave did:

1. When I cleaned the balls with Aramith (and buffed them in the ball machine) I found that throw started out at 2 inches, and within 8 to 10 trials, the throw increased to 4 inches, and remained there.

2. When I cleaned the balls with Novus 1 (and buffed them in the ball machine) I found that throw started out at just under 2 inches and took about 20 trials to reach 4 inches of throw. I also found that the amount of throw was inconsistent, as in the throw would go up to 3 or 4 inches, and then come back down to 2.5 inches for several trials, and then go back up to 4 inches.

3. I noted that since my ball cleaner has been using Novus 1 cleaner for a long time, the padding may be impregnated with residual Novus, which could impact the results of the Aramith test (item 1 above). So I cleaned more balls by hand with Aramith and only buffed them until shiny with a cotton cloth. I did not put them in the ball machine. In this case, the throw was consistent at 5 inches the entire time (over 20 tries).


CONCLUSIONS/RECOMMENDATIONS

There is a clear difference in throw between using Aramith cleaned by hand and Novus 1 cleaned in a ball machine. The Aramith throws very consistently at 5 inches, even from the very first shot, whereas the Novus 1 throws inconsistently, and changes dramatically after fewer than 10 rolls up and down the table (10 trials). Novus "tops out" at a throw around 4 inches, but is still inconsistent well after 20 tries.

It seems to me that Aramith is the way to go since it provides consistency. I find that when using Novus 1, the balls open up more easily than when using Aramith. I wonder whether this is an "unfair" advantage, akin to spraying silicone on the balls. I would be interested to hear what is being used in tournament play. I believe it is wise to learn how to play under various playing conditions, but knowing how the balls were cleaned can help a player gauge how much the throw conditions are likely to change.
Dan,

Excellent work! I'm glad you did this since Novus 1 cleaner has been mentioned and recommended by several people.

I agree with your conclusions. It may sound counter-intuitive to some people, but a cleaner that reduces throw too much can be a bad thing. Here's a pertinent quote from my July '14 BD article (Throw Follow-up: Part I: Cling):

You may be asking yourself: “Why not always use a wax to reduce throw as much as possible?” If there were no throw, shot making would be easier because you could aim every shot, regardless of angle, speed, and spin, to hit at the ideal ghost-ball position along the "line of centers." Low friction on the CB would also make draw shots easier since less backspin would be lost on the way to the OB. However, with a very-lowfriction wax, certain throw and spin-transfer shots would no longer be possible (see the throw FAQ page on my website for examples). Also, conditions being so different than what people expect would require adjustments. Also, as the wax wears off with use, the conditions could change significantly. Also, if everybody did not use the same wax, and clean and wax the balls frequently, conditions could be very different from one place to another, from one day to the next, and from one ball to the next.

The Aramith cleaner seems to provide the expected normal amount of throw, and the throw seems to remain fairly consistent with use. That's what you want in a ball cleaner or polish.

Again, great work.

Regards,
Dave

PS: FYI, I've added a quote of (and link to) your results on my cling/skid/kick resource page. Thanks again!
  
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#3)
JoeyA
Efren's Mini-Tourn BACKER
JoeyA has a reputation beyond reputeJoeyA has a reputation beyond reputeJoeyA has a reputation beyond reputeJoeyA has a reputation beyond reputeJoeyA has a reputation beyond reputeJoeyA has a reputation beyond reputeJoeyA has a reputation beyond reputeJoeyA has a reputation beyond reputeJoeyA has a reputation beyond reputeJoeyA has a reputation beyond reputeJoeyA has a reputation beyond repute
 
JoeyA's Avatar
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 22,208
vCash: 1300
iTrader: 2 / 100%
Join Date: Apr 2003
   
01-25-2015, 03:33 PM

WOW! Thank you for sharing your information Dan.

JoeyA


"I would rather not deal with such questions, because it's like shearing a piglet—a lot of squealing and little wool."
  
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#4)
fishermanOICUR1
AzB Silver Member
fishermanOICUR1 has a reputation beyond reputefishermanOICUR1 has a reputation beyond reputefishermanOICUR1 has a reputation beyond reputefishermanOICUR1 has a reputation beyond reputefishermanOICUR1 has a reputation beyond reputefishermanOICUR1 has a reputation beyond reputefishermanOICUR1 has a reputation beyond reputefishermanOICUR1 has a reputation beyond reputefishermanOICUR1 has a reputation beyond reputefishermanOICUR1 has a reputation beyond reputefishermanOICUR1 has a reputation beyond repute
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 293
vCash: 1700
iTrader: 9 / 100%
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: near Kokomo Indiana
   
01-25-2015, 09:56 PM

I have not used any wax or commercial cleaner on my Super Pros, only Windex. They get cleaned and polished but does that mean I'm not getting enough throw?
  
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#5)
dr_dave
Instructional Author
dr_dave has a reputation beyond reputedr_dave has a reputation beyond reputedr_dave has a reputation beyond reputedr_dave has a reputation beyond reputedr_dave has a reputation beyond reputedr_dave has a reputation beyond reputedr_dave has a reputation beyond reputedr_dave has a reputation beyond reputedr_dave has a reputation beyond reputedr_dave has a reputation beyond reputedr_dave has a reputation beyond repute
 
dr_dave's Avatar
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 8,129
vCash: 1700
iTrader: 4 / 100%
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Colorado
   
01-26-2015, 06:10 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by fishermanOICUR1 View Post
I have not used any wax or commercial cleaner on my Super Pros, only Windex. They get cleaned and polished but does that mean I'm not getting enough throw?
Try Dan's experiment. It's not that difficult. If you do, please report back with what you find for the Windex.

Regards,
Dave
  
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#6)
Bob Jewett
Northern California

Bob Jewett has a reputation beyond reputeBob Jewett has a reputation beyond reputeBob Jewett has a reputation beyond reputeBob Jewett has a reputation beyond reputeBob Jewett has a reputation beyond reputeBob Jewett has a reputation beyond reputeBob Jewett has a reputation beyond reputeBob Jewett has a reputation beyond reputeBob Jewett has a reputation beyond reputeBob Jewett has a reputation beyond reputeBob Jewett has a reputation beyond repute
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 12,629
vCash: 1700
iTrader: 9 / 100%
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Berkeley, CA
   
01-26-2015, 03:07 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by dr_dave View Post
Try Dan's experiment. It's not that difficult. If you do, please report back with what you find for the Windex.

Regards,
Dave
If you (fisherman) do try the experiment, please try it also with the Aramith cleaner if you can.

I think Windex is the wrong thing to use on pool balls, especially if it contains ammonia.


Bob Jewett
SF Billiard Academy
  
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#7)
Dan White
AzB Silver Member
Dan White has a reputation beyond reputeDan White has a reputation beyond reputeDan White has a reputation beyond reputeDan White has a reputation beyond reputeDan White has a reputation beyond reputeDan White has a reputation beyond reputeDan White has a reputation beyond reputeDan White has a reputation beyond reputeDan White has a reputation beyond reputeDan White has a reputation beyond reputeDan White has a reputation beyond repute
 
Dan White's Avatar
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 2,298
vCash: 500
iTrader: 2 / 100%
Join Date: Oct 2005
   
01-27-2015, 08:04 AM

Thanks for the replies!

I use a Bludworth ball cleaner and now I'm wondering if I need the pads to be replaced. On the one hand, Aramith provides consistent results from the first shot. On the other, it seems easier to run balls (straight pool) with Novus. Last week I had trouble reaching 50 balls using just Aramith. After my experiment, I cleaned all the balls with Novus just to get them all back to the same state, and I ran 74 my first try like falling off a log.

Is using Novus like cheating in that the balls open up too well? I dunno, but something tells me I should be using the cleaner that the manufacturer recommends.


Dan White
  
Reply With Quote
Update
Old
  (#8)
Dan White
AzB Silver Member
Dan White has a reputation beyond reputeDan White has a reputation beyond reputeDan White has a reputation beyond reputeDan White has a reputation beyond reputeDan White has a reputation beyond reputeDan White has a reputation beyond reputeDan White has a reputation beyond reputeDan White has a reputation beyond reputeDan White has a reputation beyond reputeDan White has a reputation beyond reputeDan White has a reputation beyond repute
 
Dan White's Avatar
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 2,298
vCash: 500
iTrader: 2 / 100%
Join Date: Oct 2005
   
Update - 03-30-2015, 02:45 PM

I would like to provide an update just to close one loose end on my experiment. To recap, I found that balls polished with Novus in the ball machine changed from low throw to higher throw quickly. On the other hand, balls cleaned with Aramith by hand did not change in throw at all. I wanted to test the possibility that the ball machine made some impact on the throw, but I could not use the ball machine with Aramith cleaner because Novus was impregnated in the machine's fabric, skewing the results.

I purchased new fabric and replaced the old one yesterday. After cleaning the balls in the machine with Aramith I repeated the throw test. The result was that the throw was very nearly the same over 30 or 40 trials, about 5.5 inches. The conclusion is that the ball machine had no effect on the amount of throw. I have to say I was glad to see that result because it makes my decision to use Aramith only that much easier.

Side note: I didn't study this conclusively, but I did find something odd when I lined up the numbers of the balls so that they were touching when I hit the shot (Centennials). It appears that the ball throws a good half ball to full ball LESS when the numbers on the balls are touching in the trial. I didn't hit enough of these to make a definitive statement, but I'm fairly confident that something strange is going on when the white numbered circles are touching... but that's for another day...


Dan White
  
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#9)
dr_dave
Instructional Author
dr_dave has a reputation beyond reputedr_dave has a reputation beyond reputedr_dave has a reputation beyond reputedr_dave has a reputation beyond reputedr_dave has a reputation beyond reputedr_dave has a reputation beyond reputedr_dave has a reputation beyond reputedr_dave has a reputation beyond reputedr_dave has a reputation beyond reputedr_dave has a reputation beyond reputedr_dave has a reputation beyond repute
 
dr_dave's Avatar
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 8,129
vCash: 1700
iTrader: 4 / 100%
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Colorado
   
03-30-2015, 02:52 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan White View Post
I would like to provide an update just to close one loose end on my experiment. To recap, I found that balls polished with Novus in the ball machine changed from low throw to higher throw quickly. On the other hand, balls cleaned with Aramith by hand did not change in throw at all. I wanted to test the possibility that the ball machine made some impact on the throw, but I could not use the ball machine with Aramith cleaner because Novus was impregnated in the machine's fabric, skewing the results.

I purchased new fabric and replaced the old one yesterday. After cleaning the balls in the machine with Aramith I repeated the throw test. The result was that the throw was very nearly the same over 30 or 40 trials, about 5.5 inches. The conclusion is that the ball machine had no effect on the amount of throw. I have to say I was glad to see that result because it makes my decision to use Aramith only that much easier.

Side note: I didn't study this conclusively, but I did find something odd when I lined up the numbers of the balls so that they were touching when I hit the shot (Centennials). It appears that the ball throws a good half ball to full ball LESS when the numbers on the balls are touching in the trial. I didn't hit enough of these to make a definitive statement, but I'm fairly confident that something strange is going on when the white numbered circles are touching... but that's for another day...
That's great info, Dan. Thank you for sharing.

Please let us know if you test the number-throw theory some more.

Regards,
Dave
  
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#10)
Dan White
AzB Silver Member
Dan White has a reputation beyond reputeDan White has a reputation beyond reputeDan White has a reputation beyond reputeDan White has a reputation beyond reputeDan White has a reputation beyond reputeDan White has a reputation beyond reputeDan White has a reputation beyond reputeDan White has a reputation beyond reputeDan White has a reputation beyond reputeDan White has a reputation beyond reputeDan White has a reputation beyond repute
 
Dan White's Avatar
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 2,298
vCash: 500
iTrader: 2 / 100%
Join Date: Oct 2005
   
03-30-2015, 02:55 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by dr_dave View Post
That's great info, Dan. Thank you for sharing.

Please let us know if you test the number-throw theory some more.

Regards,
Dave
Sure thing.

By the way, I think you replied to my post before I finished typing it! You're fast!


Dan White
  
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
vBulletin Security provided by vBSecurity (Lite) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2017 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.