Upa .......what Did They Do?

jimmy-leggs said:

could someone enlighten me with a little bit of history about this huge pool organization and why there is so much bad blood being talked about it.

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Ironically, Grady Mathews had alot to do with the UPA being formed. He had a student in the Wash, DC area looking for lessons and could not take him. So, he called a freind in the dc area (my farther) and he put the guy in touch with Max Eberle. Max gave lessons for a number of years and became good friends. The guy is a software executive and him and max wanted to do something for pool and thats when they came up with the UPA.

Max used to play in the juniors with Charlie and myself. Max and charlie were roommates and played out of the same pool room in different age brackets. Charlies game was on fire and he just won the new york big apple event. The Upa needed a "pro player rep" and thats when and how charlie williams got involved.

The Upa is and was a work in progress. They began by excluding players that did not sign up. The whole strength in numbers game!!! They wanted the players to sign exclusive contracts and try and leverage the industry into going thru them to have a tournament. Needless to say it ruffled some feathers!!!!

Later, they experienced a set back when a promoter came up short at an event and they started to make the promoters put the money in "Escrow". The players refused to support one another and join the boycott and thus the whole rift between the UPA and a major promoter.

The Upa was requiring 20,000 per event to be sanctioned. When promoters tried to do 10g for 9 ball and 10g for one pocket the UPA "Turned Up its nose". No sanctioning! Charlie said to put it all in 9 ball and it would be sanctioned! Charlie/The UPA thought it best to push one game. Popularize one game and not confuse things with two games.

The promoters tried to get permission to use player like ness and names on advertising and get assurance that several big names would be in attendance. Several promoters even today are willing to put up the 20g if they can get Efren to attend. A guarenttee of his presence is all that is required. The UPA could not even do that! Plus, they could not get the players to sign contracts to allow the promoters to use their name and likeness in advertising and promotion efforts.

Many things may have changed and many things may still be the same with the UPA! They were on the right track in many ways and way off base in others. Good intentions and just a bad outcome.

I hope this helps anyone interested in understanding the UPA tensions with some of the players. Grady did over a dozen pool tournaments and tried to work with them. Was all upset about a deal with the UPA to stay out of 14.1 because he was venturing that route and when they beat Grady to the punch and excluded him from participating he was "Upset" other players like Hopkins and Ray Martin were not made to "Qualify" needless to say he was upset.

Ironically, Grady has seen ventures with Hopkins, Pat Fleming and numerous others flurish and he for some reason has been squeezed out of commentating jobs, guest invites and other precieved oppertunites.

Grady is a great guy and I am one person that would love to see something good happen for the man that has done so much for the sport. He is one person I believe deserves a hall of fame spot despite their qualification quidelines. He is one person an exception should be made for!!!

Sincerely.
Kid
Dynomite

Please Be Gentle

Didn't the UPA also schedule some of their events on the same dates as other tournaments, that had set their schedule FIRST (I'm remembering some Calif. tournament(s) and maybe a couple of others).
Weren't the UPA players 'required' to play in the UPA events and snub the previously scheduled tournaments ?
I may be wrong, someone with a better memory needs to step in here and put me in my place... imo
Doug

Smorgass Bored said:

Didn't the UPA also schedule some of their events on the same dates as other tournaments, that had set their schedule FIRST (I'm remembering some Calif. tournament(s) and maybe a couple of others).
Weren't the UPA players 'required' to play in the UPA events and snub the previously scheduled tournaments ?
I may be wrong, someone with a better memory needs to step in here and put me in my place... imo
Doug

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Yes and yes!

JAM

Your are right about the monopolistic strategies of the UPA. They were trying to be the only game in town. Plus, some of the scheduled events may have been timed in response to the prior problems with some promotors?

I have heard and read other disturbing things about ranking systems and who is eligible or allowed to attend special events. It is ironic that the UPA made so many obsticles for promoters and now Charlie and Dragon promotions have entered the arena as pool promoters!

Plus, the UPA would rank or "place their players strategically on the board" to avoid key match ups early on. They would seed the top players and again the ranking system issues come into play.

kid
Dynomite

JAM said:

Yes and yes!

JAM

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OH! I have to second that emotion. Off the top of my head I know of a few. One happen to be in the pool room that I play out of now, and it was a 14.1 tourny. That happen to be terrible, the owner of the pool room was very upset not to mention lost a few bags of sand in the process. Just about all of the big name players pulled out last minute because of that good ole' point system that they feared of loosing if they did not attend.

Kid Dynomite said:

...the UPA would rank or "place their players strategically on the board" to avoid key match ups early on. They would seed the top players and again the ranking system issues come into play.

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To be fair this is perfectly standard in many professional individual sports (E.G. Tennis) One of the reasons of having a ranking system is to enable the promoters to seed the players to ensure the get the most interesting match ups in the later stages when the attendance will be highest. It is also standard for the WPBA, which is still the only consistently successful Pro pool tour in the USA. It allows the top percentage of players to make a reasonably consistent income because they know, on average, how much they will earn each tournament, and it allows sponsors to gauge the value of a player to them based on their ranking.

There is no question this makes it rough on low ranking players, but the cold hard essence of any competitive sport is to hone the finest talents and to discard the rest. If not no one would bother keeping score. The key is to achieve a balance that ensures whilst it's hard it's not impossible. A player like Kelly Fisher is an example that proves that talent can overcome the obstacles of the seeded WPBA tournament format.

If a ranking system is based on very few actual events and managed such that personal preferences can influence seeding it can easily detract from anything else a tour manages to achieve. However the whole IPT farrago last year threw all this into sharp relief. Despite having mechanisms just as Byzantine as the UPA for determining it's invited players, constant changes to the format made behind closed doors and blatant personal favoritism towards certain players it was initially very successful both with players and fans despite all the obvious flaws.

To me this means it is not the actual mechanisms of the UPA which are the real root problem, it is the fundamentally limited resources (both of prize funds, sponsorship and events) that causes the tensions and strife in the Pro Pool world.

AuntyDan said:

To be fair this is perfectly standard in many professional individual sports (E.G. Tennis) One of the reasons of having a ranking system is to enable the promoters to seed the players to ensure the get the most interesting match ups in the later stages when the attendance will be highest. It is also standard for the WPBA, which is still the only consistently successful Pro pool tour in the USA. It allows the top percentage of players to make a reasonably consistent income because they know, on average, how much they will earn each tournament, and it allows sponsors to gauge the value of a player to them based on their ranking.

There is no question this makes it rough on low ranking players, but the cold hard essence of any competitive sport is to hone the finest talents and to discard the rest. If not no one would bother keeping score. The key is to achieve a balance that ensures whilst it's hard it's not impossible. A player like Kelly Fisher is an example that proves that talent can overcome the obstacles of the seeded WPBA tournament format.

If a ranking system is based on very few actual events and managed such that personal preferences can influence seeding it can easily detract from anything else a tour manages to achieve. However the whole IPT farrago last year threw all this into sharp relief. Despite having mechanisms just as Byzantine as the UPA for determining it's invited players, constant changes to the format made behind closed doors and blatant personal favoritism towards certain players it was initially very successful both with players and fans despite all the obvious flaws.

To me this means it is not the actual mechanisms of the UPA which are the real root problem, it is the fundamentally limited resources (both of prize funds, sponsorship and events) that causes the tensions and strife in the Pro Pool world.

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This becomes an issue when you have non-Upa players like dennis orcollo or other great international players. They are not UPA ranked but still great players and have to be placed somewhere on the board. Strickland was not a member and refused to join as well as Keith and the question remained "Do You Seed Them" tournament promoters where having to lobby to seed some big names. Many wanted a "true Draw" and the UPA wanted seeding by Charlie. It helped the UPA players avoid tuff matches till the money rounds in some cases while Earl and Keith non upa may have had a tuff road to the money rounds

Kid
Dynomite

Kid Dynomite said:

This becomes an issue when you have non-Upa players like dennis orcollo or other great international players. They are not UPA ranked but still great players and have to be placed somewhere on the board. Strickland was not a member and refused to join as well as Keith and the question remained "Do You Seed Them" tournament promoters where having to lobby to seed some big names. Many wanted a "true Draw" and the UPA wanted seeding by Charlie. It helped the UPA players avoid tuff matches till the money rounds in some cases while Earl and Keith non upa may have had a tuff road to the money rounds

Kid
Dynomite

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Ain't it the truth. It was like a nightmare, wasn't it? It just kept getting worse and worse!

Look, there were for sure some mistakes made in the early days of the UPA. I can recount many incidents which were not well thought out and caused some strife. The whole vision of the UPA was to unite male pool players in an organization to advance professional pool. It is supposed to be the "official" governing body of professional pool.

In the scheme of sports, it seems ridiculous in a way to have a pool player pay 100 bucks to join, and voila, he's a "touring pro"; a professional pool player, if you will, who is seeded and receives byes at high-profile events like the U.S. Open. Some of the "touring pros" that paid their 100 bucks dues couldn't make it to the top five in the local 9-ball tournaments in my area, IMHO.

What still seems confusing to me today, though, is that the UPA is used as a measuring stick for WORLD events when it comes to ranking. Yet, the UPA is not a nationality-restricted organization. Its members are multinational.

It begs the question whether the UPA or another American pool organization would be better if it was an American-restricted governing body of professional pool. I haven't weighed the pros and cons of this concept, but it is something I have thought about in the past.

Before the incoming missiles come in from JAM-haters, this is only food for thought. I am trying to understand how the UPA can send American players to international events utilizing its ranking system when the organization consists of international players.

JAM

jimmy-leggs said:

There is NOTHING WRONG with being patriotic. but what you keep on wanting will only put pool backwards NOT forward.

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JAM

The nail in the coffin for the US was when the professional game split with the BCA back in the 1980's. Nothing has been the same since. Excluding the participation of players that have moved to this country to play in these events really doesn't accomplish much either.

If you look at the new UPA site (http://www.upatour.net/ ), they have plans in the works for UPA qualifiers. I think that is the best way to go right now, and I think that will put to rest the "buy my pro status" that you referred to.

Frank is doing his best to turn the tour around, but he can't do it without support from the industry, the fans, or the players. Continuing to link what Frank is currently doing with the UPA with what Charlie was doing 5-7 years ago isn't fair to the current establishment. I am sure that if you get with Tony Crosby or Frank Alvarez, they could tell you more about what is in the works - and you will be pleasantly surprised. As I told you a few years ago, I understand why you were upset with the way things "used to be". The problems cannot be fixed overnight, and they cannot be fixed in an internet forum. It's changing for the better, and I hope in the future you can see that a lot of very good people are working to make it the best tour possible.

Blackjack said:

JAM

The nail in the coffin for the US was when the professional game split with the BCA back in the 1980's. Nothing has been the same since. Excluding the participation of players that have moved to this country to play in these events really doesn't accomplish much either.

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I never said to EXCLUDE anybody from PARTICIPATION.

I was contemplating the idea of an American governing body of professional pool restricted to American members. I did not suggest that international players would not be permitted to compete in the hypothetical American governing body of professional pool organization.

Blackjack said:

...Continuing to link what Frank is currently doing with the UPA with what Charlie was doing 5-7 years ago isn't fair to the current establishment.

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The UPA has not been in existence 5 to 7 years.

I have never linked ANYTHING to what Frank Alvarez is currently doing with the UPA. Sorry to put water out on your flaming opinion, once again.

JAM

Great posts Kid Dynomite...nice history lesson of the UPA.

jimmy-leggs said:

There is NOTHING WRONG with being patriotic. but what you keep on wanting will only put pool backwards NOT forward.

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JL,
In many person's opinions, pool could not possibly move backward. It is pretty far below it's previous standard.

JAM said:

I never said to EXCLUDE anybody from PARTICIPATION.

I was contemplating the idea of an American governing body of professional pool restricted to American members. I did not suggest that international players would not be permitted to compete in the hypothetical American governing body of professional pool organization.



The UPA has not been in existence 5 to 7 years.

I have never linked ANYTHING to what Frank Alvarez is currently doing with the UPA. Sorry to put water out on your flaming opinion, once again.

JAM

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You think you're not being argumentative and vicious?

I was being polite (at least I thought I was). Ok... the UPA been in existence 4 and half years almost 5.


In the future there will be events that you probably won't be happy with, however the players are going to show up anyway, in much the same way they show up to the Viking Tour events, SBE, and DCC - because they want to play. Its the same reason they showed up to the IPT, the PBT, PPPA, and the PCA - (we'll run out of letters and combinations of letters soon enough).

With the exception of the regional tours, there really isn't much else out there right now - perhaps Grady will get the ball rolling with a new tour that will be 100 times better - only time will tell. All that we can do is hope for the best and work towards cooperating with each other instead of not cooperating with each other.

Kid Dynomite said:

Your are right about the monopolistic strategies of the UPA.
kid
Dynomite

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KD,
Now you see why many of us are not so enthused with the arguments in the other thread where people say, "oh Grady, we should all work together; how can you exclude the UPA players????"

Blackjack said:

You think you're not being argumentative and vicious?

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No.

Blackjack said:

I was being polite (at least I thought I was). Ok... the UPA been in existence 4 and half years almost 5.

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Thanks for the clarification.

Blackjack said:

In the future there will be events that you probably won't be happy with...

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Please don't assume what events I may be happy with or unhappy with.

Blackjack said:

...however the players are going to show up anyway, in much the same way they show up to the Viking Tour events, SBE, and DCC - because they want to play. Its the same reason they showed up to the IPT, the PBT, PPPA, and the PCA - (we'll run out of letters and combinations of letters soon enough).

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Oh, really? Gee, I would have never thought pool players would show up to pool events. I guess that does make sense, though.

Blackjack said:

With the exception of the regional tours, there really isn't much else out there right now - perhaps Grady will get the ball rolling with a new tour that will be 100 times better - only time will tell. All that we can do is hope for the best and work towards cooperating with each other instead of not cooperating with each other.

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I will continue to hope, but my desire may differ from yours.

JAM

GEEZ LOUISE.................................

All of these threads are starting to look the same

smokeandapancak said:

GEEZ LOUISE.................................

All of these threads are starting to look the same

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That's cause they're all lacking in something.....hmmmmm.... oh yeah