Want to buy a Gold Crown and trick it out...What do I do?

perfectpocketz · May 24, 2017

fastone371 said:
Im not trying to start any fights with anyone but in that 2nd pic it does not look like the protractor body is parallel with the nose of the cushion, maybe its just an optical illusion. The red stripe/seam at the cushion appears wider at the bottom of the picture than at the top of the picture. If I can see it Im sure others will notice also.

First of all....who in their right mind would use protractor that cheap.....I'm sure your going to get a perfect read from that junk....lmao
To answer your comment about Jeff Bradshaw saying that is true.....but you didn't mention that Jeff called me and apologized and said he a
Made a mistake by not reading the whole post....and then said I was right.....your a jerk...lMAO..

perfectpocketz · May 24, 2017

Now that's and restored Brunswick Centennial Trent.........I don't flip tables just for money.
I build Dream Tables for coustomers........That Play Better Than Any Table made today......Brunswick or Diamond......I do these tables cause Brunswick was and will be the only manufacturer that builds as close to right as anyone that has ever built tables.

JazzboxBlues · May 24, 2017

Mark that table is absolutely stunning! Unfortunately one of those isn't in my budget. I'll have to stick to a Gold Crown 4 with Perfect Pockectz.

perfectpocketz · May 24, 2017

JC said:
Certain shots if trying to use a rail bridge brings the edges in contact with your wood. Especially on the side pockets.

The ball counters are also a problem.

Not as bad as a valley table but not a diamond by a damn sight.

Of course you can shoot around them but I want to shoot a shot how I want to, not how the table rails dictate I have to.

I have owned Brunswicks and I now have a diamond. The diamond is better in pretty much every way. It was rebuilt by RKC however. RKC cannot build the funky pocket irons out of a GC.

JC

Sorry...but there's no table on this planet that is built as well as a Brunswick GC......not one.
You may like playing on your Diamond....but you know nothing about a well made table and junk period.
But you always have your two cents in every thread.......for whatever reasons you love to have something to say.

Mark Gregory

trentfromtoledo · May 24, 2017

perfectpocketz said:
Now that's and restored Brunswick Centennial Trent.........I don't flip tables just for money.
I build Dream Tables for coustomers........That Play Better Than Any Table made today......Brunswick or Diamond......I do these tables cause Brunswick was and will be the only manufacturer that builds as close to right as anyone that has ever built tables.

That table is gorgeous. No one ever said you did not have skills. The rails are not restored, you built them from scratch, the ball box is also not original. It is barely even a Brunswick table. It is a Mark Gregory original and I can appreciate that.

WE FINALLY AGREE ON SOMETHING> I ALSO THINK BRUNSWICK IS THE BEST TOO!!!

I see one of your Centennials in the for sale section on here with that light for $25,000.00 . I have seen it on here for sale for quite a while. I am sure there is a small market for those and its probably hard to find buyers.

My restorations are as close to the tables original condition as possible. That is what my clients want. Some want the sub rails rebuilt and some are fine with the original rails. None the less I work for my customers and my work is solid. You can try to belittle it as much as you want, you will never take my passion and love for these old tables away from me

I have an Anniversary and Centennial in my inventory right now, can't wait to restore them! My clients are always happy!

Your work looks completely different than the original tables and that is totally your style. I like the original look and that is mine

Here are 3 beautiful Centennials I restored:

Here are 3 Anniversary's:

perfectpocketz · May 24, 2017

Trent...those tables look very nice.....and your right I just do something different....I don't like that old tired look of how the tables were build and finished back in the day.
Your customers and mine are different......you have that customer that wants and original Brunswick look....and that's what your giving them....nothing wrong with that.

I just think tables should look and play much better than they did back in the day.
your right my table hasn't sold yet.....but it will......Pat and I wanted to show the table at the Expo and had a ton of people saying all good......sure it's and high dollar table and not for the guy that wants just the look of the old school tables.....the table plays unbelievable....diamond ask me to design a table close to the centennial for them.......we do opposite work......and that's ok.....I don't think or ever thought you should stop doing what your doing........im not going to put the original look of anniversary or centennial tables out.....I'm going to put new rails...blinds ball boxes.....that's what I like....you like the original look....works for me....I'm not mad.

Mark Gregory

jtompilot · May 25, 2017

denwhit said:
Would you please describe "banking short". From the corner pocket would you aim at diamond 2 or 3 for a three rail into the adjacent pocket? And then, how should a table bank? OR, should we just know that tables bank differently and it's up to us to know about it before the match? I'm confused on this issue.
I think a billiard table banks a three rail by aiming at 3 (and not 2). A friend's Olhausen plays that way.

Ok yes, tables do bank differently. But here's what I'm getting at.

Hall of Fame in Detroit bought 25 new GC4 tables. They looked good, played good, and were very consistent between tables. Go to the Rack in Detroit area, three new lue labels. Two bank the same and the other banks completely different.

I like both GC and most new blue label Diamonds. I get tired of people slamming GC's. You can go play on any GC4 in the country and know what's it's going to play like. You can't say that about Diamond. If your not a pro player you haven't played anywhere near as many different rooms as I have so this comes form coast to coast, north to south.

bradsh98 · May 25, 2017

perfectpocketz said:
First of all....who in their right mind would use protractor that cheap.....I'm sure your going to get a perfect read from that junk....lmao
To answer your comment about Jeff Bradshaw saying that is true.....but you didn't mention that Jeff called me and apologized and said he a
Made a mistake by not reading the whole post....and then said I was right.....your a jerk...lMAO..

I did make that comment to Mark, in poor taste.

I did not delete that comment, as I followed it up with a public apology, after I called Mark. We spoke for more than two hours that night. Mark is a good guy. He is honest, and tells it like it is. That tends to rub people the wrong way sometimes, including myself. However, I have great respect for Mark. Though, it did take me a bit to develop that respect. It was just a big misunderstanding.

I was fortunate enough to meet Mark, in person, at the Expo this year. This $25k table that he and Pat have for sale is an absolute work of art. Definitely the nicest table that I have ever seen. Sure, it's not for everyone.. And that's ok! But, it will definitely be a showpiece in someone's home.

Mark has been around a while. He's seen people come and go. If you want his respect, you have to earn it. And that's ok too.

To further demonstrate the respect that I have for Mark:
I am fully capable of modifying subrails on Brunswick tables. I have jigs, fixtures, and tooling, all set up for the specific purpose of modifying Brunswick rails. However, when a customer asks me about it, I ALWAYS recommend Mark first. I also clearly explain the higher level of detail that he goes to. Again, it's not for everyone. But, for those who want the absolute best, Mark is your guy.

CJH · May 25, 2017

I own one of Mark Gregory's Centennial tables. Prior to buying the table from Mark, I saw the Centennials for sale where the so called "table mechanic" bought the piece of crap table cheap, put new cloth on it and some shoe polish and sold the table for not so cheap. I can state from 1st hand experience that the difference between one of Mark's tables and pretty much everything else out there is night and day. No comparison.

I have had a lot of players in my home playing on my table. To a man, 100% of them said that my table plays far better than anything they ever played on. I won't even mention what they say about it's beauty.

It should be thought of in terms of value. The Centennial or anniversary that a guy bought for $2k, replaced the cloth an spit shined the wood, and sells at a 500% markup = poor value proposition. Not so with a Mark Gregory table.

trentfromtoledo · May 25, 2017

CJH said:
I own one of Mark Gregory's Centennial tables. Prior to buying the table from Mark, I saw the Centennials for sale where the so called "table mechanic" bought the piece of crap table cheap, put new cloth on it and some shoe polish and sold the table for not so cheap. I can state from 1st hand experience that the difference between one of Mark's tables and pretty much everything else out there is night and day. No comparison.

I have had a lot of players in my home playing on my table. To a man, 100% of them said that my table plays far better than anything they ever played on. I won't even mention what they say about it's beauty.

It should be thought of in terms of value. The Centennial or anniversary that a guy bought for $2k, replaced the cloth an spit shined the wood, and sells at a 500% markup = poor value proposition. Not so with a Mark Gregory table.

Sorry you had such an experience in buying a Centennial before you went with Mark. You evidently asked the right questions and realized you were being taken for a ride.

My restorations require much more than "spit shined the wood" as you commented in your post.

Refinishing the rails properly is the only way... New subrails for those who want them. Then strip, sand 180 through 400 grit( 400 by hand with the grain), cushion work/ facing work, then stain, dry 24 hours and finish. Upholstery with Simonis 860 using the factory method.

Lets not forget on some tables all of the mother of pearl inlays need to be replaced.

New superspeed cushions/ pocket facings with the angles @ 141 in the corners and 102 for the sides. The subrails have to be prepped properly before new cushions, as in ALL the old glue removed from them and also the jaws of the rails. 60 durometer neoprene facings that are hand cut and sanded to an exact fit.

There is $2500 in polishing alone on the table... I farm this out, I do not have the machines to make this an in house process. Anniversary upper and lower castings are done in house.

Refinishing the ball storage/ return box takes a ridiculous amount of time and patience due to all the compartments and most of the time replacing or refinishing the back panels as well: strip, sand, stain, dry, and finish.

New dark walnut veneering on the legs, the end caps have to be take off & put back on to veneer them correctly, sand, stain, dry and finish.

Sorting, cleaning, and replacing any damaged hardware on the table. Some guys replace all of the hardware. I prefer to use as many original parts on the table as possible.

New pockets and Simonis 860. I also retro fit the tables that have the return box on them with Gold Crown gully tracks and gully return boots.

You can't just buy "any" table either, if the wood or metal is damaged, it is gonna show in the end...

Marks work is at least double in cost. He uses very fine materials and rebuilds most of the table. As I mentioned in a previous post, his work is not comparable to restoring a table to its original condition. His tables are Mark Gregory originals.

Just as you can point out how there are guys out there trying to take peoples money for nothing, there are guys like me putting a bunch of $$$$ and 100 + hours into finding, moving, selling, restoring, delivering and installing a quality product.... Not even mentioning the time involved in learning what works and what does not in restoring a table.....

I work hard at every project I take on. I am always learning and improving my skills. My work speaks for itself and my clients are always happy. Have a look at my photo albums of 50+ restorations at the link below. I of course have many references for potential clients that are serious about buying a table.

Trent from Toledo

https://www.facebook.com/pg/toledopooltables/photos/?tab=albums

P.s. Not every step is included above, every table is different and will require more or less. I work hard at picking the right tables to buy and will not compromise that.

P.s.s A fine example of my restoration work and Jack Zimmerman rails. I still get compliments from the client every time I am at his house playing pool.... I build relationships with my clients and play pool with them when ever I can. This is all about playing pool in the end

realkingcobra · May 25, 2017

All i know is i have never even had a weak moment in my life where i told myself i want to get into refinishing and rebuilding those pool tables. I have rebuilt the rails and frames, but never once has it crossed my mind to get into refinishing them. I've had plenty of requests to do so, but that's where i draw the line i tell the customer to have Mark do the work....give him a call. It takes way to long, requires way to much attention to detail, i have no interest in doing that mind of work regardless of how much it pays. As far as that goes, Mark and Trent don't even share the same customer base price wise, but there will always be customers for either one of them selling tables. I prefer to not fly in the ozone like you guys do, so you'll both have to excuse me for keeping my feet planted here on earth living in the real world, working on perfecting the real commercial pool tables out here in the real world, and having a list of customers that stretch down the block and around the corner. You both remind me of two contestants in a fishing derby catching trout. The winner is decided by who catches the most fish in weight, and the trout must be at least 10" in length to be counted. I'm thinking I'm guaranteed to win this contest because I've already caught my limit of 8 trout, while Trent is throwing back everything under 18" so he's only caught 1 keeper so far, and Mark is throwing back everything under 24" waiting on that mega trout he knows is in the lake somewhere. Problem is, the fishing derby ends tomorrow, and I'll be eating trout for dinner tonight and watching TV tomorrow while they're both still chasing trophies....so that someone can stuff them and hang them on their wall because that's what they use their money for, to skip out on the fishing and go straight to the head of the line and buy someone's hard work without breaking a sweat, sitting in the sun all day getting sun burnt, hungry....hell, they don't even have to buy a fishing pole. Funny thing is, there isn't a real pool player in the world that would spend money on a pool table that either one of these guys sell, they for the most part nust have a room that looks like it needs a pool table in it to complete the look of the room. If any customers can afford tabkes from either one of these guys, they DIDN'T make their money from playing pool, and they're not blue collar workers, they're nust customers with money and looking to spend it.

realkingcobra · May 25, 2017

I guess the point of my post is to try and get people to understand there are different levels of worming on pool tables. Mark is on a completly different level when it comes to working on the tables he builds or rebuilds and it puts him on a level by himself because i can't think of anyone else that is going to put as much time and effort into the end result as Mark does. What others in this same business seem to not understand is the amount of work and changes Mark puts into his projects, but what they do see clearly is his selling price when they price their own tables for sale, and the feeling is Marks tables are way over priced while at the same time, none of them put the time or changes into the tables they're selling to justify the selling price that Mark is getting. Flip side of the coin, Mark is not understanding that no, no one else is putting as much time and effort into the tables they're selling as he does, but at the same time....they're not trying to sell their tables as his price level, so their work matches their time invested, just as Marks work and investment matches his prices. And none of you as i already said, have the same customer base. And just to highlight the customer base a little more clear, there are customers that feel the more they spend, the better they get....and customers that can afford to pay more, but still say thats enough for a pool table, and neither Mark or Trent are in both customer market buying ranges.

skip100 · May 25, 2017

It wouldn't be a thread about tables without a bunch of 3000x2000 pixel blurry photos.

trentfromtoledo · May 25, 2017

Very well said RKC! Sorry for the over sized pictures!

P.s. I do understand how much work Mark does. What I can't accept is when someone is disrespectful about my work. I take pride in every project I take on and my end results always make my clients happy. So I am sure you can understand where I am coming from

trentfromtoledo · May 25, 2017

skip100 said:
It wouldn't be a thread about tables without a bunch of 3000x2000 pixel blurry photos.

Skip100, if you would like to see the pictures in the proper size, facebook does a great job of sizing them for me automatically.

https://www.facebook.com/pg/toledopooltables/photos/?tab=albums

Trent from Toledo

perfectpocketz · May 25, 2017

realkingcobra said:
All i know is i have never even had a weak moment in my life where i told myself i want to get into refinishing and rebuilding those pool tables. I have rebuilt the rails and frames, but never once has it crossed my mind to get into refinishing them. I've had plenty of requests to do so, but that's where i draw the line i tell the customer to have Mark do the work....give him a call. It takes way to long, requires way to much attention to detail, i have no interest in doing that mind of work regardless of how much it pays. As far as that goes, Mark and Trent don't even share the same customer base price wise, but there will always be customers for either one of them selling tables. I prefer to not fly in the ozone like you guys do, so you'll both have to excuse me for keeping my feet planted here on earth living in the real world, working on perfecting the real commercial pool tables out here in the real world, and having a list of customers that stretch down the block and around the corner. You both remind me of two contestants in a fishing derby catching trout. The winner is decided by who catches the most fish in weight, and the trout must be at least 10" in length to be counted. I'm thinking I'm guaranteed to win this contest because I've already caught my limit of 8 trout, while Trent is throwing back everything under 18" so he's only caught 1 keeper so far, and Mark is throwing back everything under 24" waiting on that mega trout he knows is in the lake somewhere. Problem is, the fishing derby ends tomorrow, and I'll be eating trout for dinner tonight and watching TV tomorrow while they're both still chasing trophies....so that someone can stuff them and hang them on their wall because that's what they use their money for, to skip out on the fishing and go straight to the head of the line and buy someone's hard work without breaking a sweat, sitting in the sun all day getting sun burnt, hungry....hell, they don't even have to buy a fishing pole. Funny thing is, there isn't a real pool player in the world that would spend money on a pool table that either one of these guys sell, they for the most part nust have a room that looks like it needs a pool table in it to complete the look of the room. If any customers can afford tabkes from either one of these guys, they DIDN'T make their money from playing pool, and they're not blue collar workers, they're nust customers with money and looking to spend it.

Glen...you couldn't more wrong.....this isn't a contest about his tables and my tables at all.
To me it's about a great playing table first....the rails done the right way.....the table done to the best it can.......I backed into the Honduras rosewood for a customer that I'm doing and 8 anniversary.....this goes back a yr and a half ago......his home is not ready still.
He's built a room for the table....house is probably 2-3 mil.

While waiting on him and getting his rails and ball box.....I made a set of Honduras rosewood rails for and centennial....that's the pics of the table in Dallas.

I'm finishing the anniversary this month and delivering.....can't wait to see how this table turns out.

I told you before Glen...it's not about how much can I make on this table or flip that table....I want great playing tables.....and great looking tables.

Trent don't want to put money into the tables like I do....he's doing this for the return on his money.....I know I've heard it 5000 times trents customers are happy.

That's cause they're trusting he's doing everything he can for a great playing and looking table.......but he's just doing what everyone else dose that sells those kind of tables....the customer that spends good money on a table is not a pool player....boy I'm glade you told me that Glen...I may not have ever figured that out...LOL

Just cause people that have money to buy these kind of tables....don't play great....has nothing to do with how they would love the table play their about to purchase.

I'm a hack golfer.....but I would love to hack up Augusta National....knowing I'm playing on the best.
You don't have to be a great player to own a table that plays great.

I use the best meterials....the tooling....thats why my rails play great.....I spare no expense to do them right.
I give people what I would want in my house for a table.....not so I can rush the job cut expenses and make better money......I just charge more.

Glen.....you should know where I'm coming from....this isn't a hammer on Trent....his mouth made me not like him....I don't care what he does....but if I think someone is not getting their monies worth.....I'll speak up.

Mark Gregory

Bobkitty · May 25, 2017

perfectpocketz said:
d
that spends good money on a table is not a pool player....boy I'm glade you told me that Glen...I may not have ever figured that out...LOL

Just cause people that have money to buy these kind of tables....don't play great....has nothing to do with how they would love the table play their about to purchase.

I'm a hack golfer.....but I would love to hack up Augusta National....knowing I'm playing on the best.
You don't have to be a great player to own a table that plays great.

I use the best meterials....the tooling....thats why my rails play great.....I spare no expense to do them right.
I give people what I would want in my house for a table.....not so I can rush the job cut expenses and make better money......I just charge more.

Mark Gregory

Mark, RKC, you both nailed it. I'm not a great pool player, never was, never will be, but I do want the best playing table in the NW (or one of the few best). That's why I had you make new walnut rails for my Anniversary and will have RKC's full treatment. I had a local guy refinish the table and rails and buff out the aluminum ($600 not the prettiest but good enough). Guys that shoot great pool just woke up and are trying to figure out how to get their stick out of hock.

trentfromtoledo · May 25, 2017

perfectpocketz said:
Glen...you couldn't more wrong.....this isn't a contest about his tables and my tables at all.
To me it's about a great playing table first....the rails done the right way.....the table done to the best it can.......I backed into the Honduras rosewood for a customer that I'm doing and 8 anniversary.....this goes back a yr and a half ago......his home is not ready still.
He's built a room for the table....house is probably 2-3 mil.

While waiting on him and getting his rails and ball box.....I made a set of Honduras rosewood rails for and centennial....that's the pics of the table in Dallas.

I'm finishing the anniversary this month and delivering.....can't wait to see how this table turns out.

I told you before Glen...it's not about how much can I make on this table or flip that table....I want great playing tables.....and great looking tables.

Trent don't want to put money into the tables like I do....he's doing this for the return on his money.....I know I've heard it 5000 times trents customers are happy.

That's cause they're trusting he's doing everything he can for a great playing and looking table.......but he's just doing what everyone else dose that sells those kind of tables....the customer that spends good money on a table is not a pool player....boy I'm glade you told me that Glen...I may not have ever figured that out...LOL

Just cause people that have money to buy these kind of tables....don't play great....has nothing to do with how they would love the table play their about to purchase.

I'm a hack golfer.....but I would love to hack up Augusta National....knowing I'm playing on the best.
You don't have to be a great player to own a table that plays great.

I use the best meterials....the tooling....thats why my rails play great.....I spare no expense to do them right.
I give people what I would want in my house for a table.....not so I can rush the job cut expenses and make better money......I just charge more.

Glen.....you should know where I'm coming from....this isn't a hammer on Trent....his mouth made me not like him....I don't care what he does....but if I think someone is not getting their monies worth.....I'll speak up.

Mark Gregory

Its kind of funny, I am not sure when you ever have seen my work other than pictures? I spend what needs to be spent per the customers order and I charge a fair price for my work. I make a good living and love what I do. I am happy and so are my customers. You are happy and so are yours. Its a win win. I have shown your respect since I started posting on here. I know we got into stupid battles on here and that stems from your lack of respect for anyone else's work, not just mine. I wish you the best in all your ventures, just as I do for everyone else in this business. I have been very clear about my work and intentions. I have said enough and am done with this thread

Thanks RKC and all the other mechanics that have helped me. I learn new things every day! I appreciate all of the knowledge. :thumbup:

Johnny Rosato · May 25, 2017

Want to buy a Gold Crown and trick it out...What do I do?

1 ~ Buy Gold Crown.
2 ~ Trick it out.

JazzboxBlues · May 25, 2017

2twoball said:
Want to buy a Gold Crown and trick it out...What do I do?

1 ~ Buy Gold Crown.
2 ~ Trick it out.

I was looking for some advice on what model I'd really like, if there were an alternative to Mark Gregory doing my rails without shipping them out and what else I'd need to do to the table to trick it out besides the rails.

I now know I want a Gold Crown 4 and even a 5 if I can locate one used. The rails will be going to Mark. Even if I get a 5. Not fully sure yet how to correct the frame yet but know there's a way. Only 3 weeks until I'm in my new place and I can buy one.

Want to buy a Gold Crown and trick it out...What do I do?

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