ABR SPECIAL REPORT: Dragon promotions 10ball event

Mr. Bond said:

This is a letter that was sent to me by a person in the industry who doesn't want to be named, for fear of political or economic backlash.

I agreed to post it for them, because I too believe that this has gotten way out of hand, and some things do need to be said, as unpleasant as they might be to hear.



Cindy and Charlie,
Despite what Cindy said on the interview, you are not the victims here. If you get hate mail or threats, it's because you have done something that people hate. They hate your repeated attempts to make your events out to be something they are not. And then to wonder why you have been alienated by the WPA and BCA shows very plainly that you must honestly believe that you've actually done nothing wrong.

But you have.

Cindy basically admitted that you choose to market your events this way purposely and intentionally, because clearly the phrase "world championship" generates more interest and prestige, regardless of whether or not the statement is actually true. She also presented the issue as if there were no way around it. "Would you rather we do no event at all, or claim that it's something that its not" (not an actual quote) which I must admit, is a disturbing modus operandi if you want to know the truth.

I cant speak for Rob, Shane or Ian, but I think I know why they didn't respond as quickly as you would have liked. It's probably because they are sick of dealing with the bullshit. And I don't blame them one bit. This is getting ridiculous beyond belief. You know damn good and well what your press releases were intended to do. You know damn good and well that you were pissed about the name change, so you tried your best to keep people believing that your event was still the same anyway. That's not effective marketing Cindy, that's lying to the players and fans.

For Pete's sake, just do what Mike said and knock off the bullshit and all of this will go away, the event will be fine, and the players will not have wasted huge sums of money and time, all because of you. With all the bad PR coming out of this, do you really want to pour gas on the fire and have 48 people blowing all kinds of money on nothing, because you're too stubborn to do the right thing?

Seriously..don't sit there and say "gee wiz, they could have called me back if they had a problem with what we are doing...". Why should they call you, when you should have known better in the first place?? You are not the victims here.

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n0risc said:

Who here in this thread that continually post, more or less all negative in regards to DP, actually have organized a successful pro event? Where all the players were paid on time, the event was professionally ran?

Sub-Events on someone else's momentum don't count here either. A SOLE EVENT, organized, promoted, and marketed with success.

1..2..3.... GO!

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n0risc said:

Who here in this thread that continually post, more or less all negative in regards to DP, actually have organized a successful pro event? Where all the players were paid on time, the event was professionally ran?

Sub-Events on someone else's momentum don't count here either. A SOLE EVENT, organized, promoted, and marketed with success.

1..2..3.... GO!

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jay helfert said:

Regardless of how this tournament or any other is marketed, there will always be a bottom line that most players will look at. Can I make money here and is this a good deal for me? The smart players who care about their bottom line will make a choice whether to play or not based on the above."

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jay helfert said:

... As an example Dragon put on a Men's Straight Pool event last year, inviting up to 64 players to compete. It was in New York and the entry fee was $500 and it was a four day event. With a full field the total purse came to $40,000. That means there was $8,000 in added money. My friend Dennis Orcollo was invited to play, and he would have had to fly from Los Angeles, spend at least five nights in an expensive hotel and pay a big entry fee to participate. I added up the numbers for him and told him he would have to finish third to break even!

Only the winner did okay here, with $10,000 the top prize and $5,000 for second. Third was like $3,000 I believe. It may have been only $2,500. Amazing to me, they got a full field of 64 suckers. Oops I mean players. Almost all were East Coast based, so they didn't have to fly in. I did take the time to call Charlie and ask him to waive Dennis' entry fee and maybe then he would come. No deal, so Dennis chose not to attend.

Again what amazes me is that they actually got 64 players for this aforementioned event. I guess it's a case of "If we can get them to come for almost no money, why not?"

Granted Dragon has produced some good events in the past, but events like these are not among them. And to bally-hoo them as if they are major pool tournaments is ridiculous. Most of the "major's" today have a purse well in excess of $100,000, with 25-40K on top.

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PINKLADY said:

ok, i have recouperated from the 20 trips to my cell phone that i thought was ringing during the interview. (RUDE!!!! )

back on topic: several times, i said to KK9: IS SHE SERIOUSLY THAT STUPID? WHAT BULLSHIT! DOES SHE REALLY THINK THAT PEOPLE WILL BUY THIS?

Mike exercised great restraint. i wouldn't have been as nice. (maybe it's a female-thing.) sometimes you just have to throw the BS flag.

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JCIN said:

Whoever wrote that needs to grow a set and sign it.

Anonymity is for cowards.

The very attitude of "doesn't want to be named, for fear of political or economic backlash" is how things get as bad as they are. This isnt the Soviet Union in the 50's. No one is going to disappear anyone. Its pool. What the hell kind of political or economic repercussions could there be to posting an opinion shared by 95% of the people in the game?

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itsfroze said:

Fixed that for you !!! VVVVVVVVVVVVVV

Better question is who here has snuck into a woman's hotel room (unannounced) in the middle of the night ?

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n0risc said:

Who here in this thread that continually post, more or less all negative in regards to DP, actually have organized a successful pro event? Where all the players were paid on time, the event was professionally ran?

Sub-Events on someone else's momentum don't count here either. A SOLE EVENT, organized, promoted, and marketed with success.

1..2..3.... GO!

Click to expand...

n0risc said:

Who here in this thread that continually post, more or less all negative in regards to DP, actually have organized a successful pro event? Where all the players were paid on time, the event was professionally ran?

Sub-Events on someone else's momentum don't count here either. A SOLE EVENT, organized, promoted, and marketed with success.

1..2..3.... GO!

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actionplayer said:

this is how Jason hunt feels about it (taken from his facebook)

I'd have never have known!!! I told everyone Charlie Williams is a scumbag!!! I had a feeling he purposely wasn't booking an event with me because he knows if I see something shady in the poolworld I'm not afraid to let it be known to the poolworld!! That's why a lot of people in pool have done their best to falsely slander my name...throw me out of places...and give me a bad reputation because I speak up for what's right for myself...and the players!!! I'm sick of the people running things in pool lying to the players...stealing our money...discriminating...having favorites...manipulating things to controll the outcomes of things....and allowing bad things to happen to players!!
Thank you so much for letting me know of this and did keeping me in your thoughts!! That truly means a lot...especially from someone I really don't know at all!! That's strong brother!
But know one thing....I'll never stop fighting for the betterment of pool and its players...and trying to make the poolworld a better place!
I have been trying to do this through my poolhall Buffalo's Silver Cue Billiard Ultra Lounge in Reno Nevada!!

We put ALL our money back into our poolhall...we make sure the equipment and the atmosphere is 5 star. We run tournaments 3 times a week with no green fees and 100% payback!! Plus we add big money!! (Unless the people spend more than we add...we actually lose money but i dont care because im diing it for the players!!! ) We lowered the prices of the previous owners. Booked a world class dj for our resident dj. Have karaoke 2 nights a week. Sunday is ladies night they play free pool all day and night. And SOOO much more!

And a few people still find ways to hate and try and keep people from my business. And hurt our family.

its crazy. And I can't understand it. But i will never stop being me. And never stop improving pool in every way I can. And never stop supporting the people who have done great selfless things for our sport. I grow players...teach lessons...create actiin...protect people in my poolhall from bad conduct...anything I can do to make my small world right.

One day...I pray and believe...that they will all come around and truly see my heart...my passion..my ambition...and my dreams...
Which is to better pool and its environment for EVERYONE.

Thank u so much for this you really made my day.
Hopefully people like Charlie williams...Barry berhman...and many others out here who have been blindly STEALING THE PLAYERS MONEY FOR YEARS AND MANIPULATING WHO CAN...AND CAN NOT PLAY...AND SO MUCH MORE...will be exposed and ousted by the masses of players who simply WANT WHAT IS FAIR, WHAT IS RIGHT..AND WHAT THEY DESERVE.
WHICH IS RESPECT...NOT TO BE CHEATED...NOT TO HAVE FAVORITISM OR PERSECUTION.
TO BE RECOGNIZED AND APPLAUDED FOR THEIR TALENTS.
AND TO BE CONGRATULATED FOR THEIR WINS...AND PAYED IN FULL AND IN TOTALITY...OF WHAT THEY HAVE WON.
BECAUSE THAY EARNED IT.
TO WIN IN POOL IS THE HARDEST THINK ON EARTH TO DO.
AND IT TRULY IS AN ARTFORM...AS WELL AS A SPORT.
IT IS SLOWLY GAINING THE RESPECT IT DESERVES....AND SHIT STAINS LIKE THIS ONLY HOLD US BACK...BUT IF WE EXPOSE THEM...AND OUT THEM...

HUGE SPONSORS WILL COME!!! BECAUSE THEY WILL KNOW THAT WE WONT STAND FOR THIS IN OUR BEAUTIFULL SPORT THAT REACHES EVERY ASPECT OF OUR SOCIETY!! FROM HOLE IN THE WALL BARS....TO MILLIONAIRES MANTIONS!!

WE ARE ALL IN THIS STRUGGLE TOGETHER BROTHER!

LET'S BAN TOGETHER AND MAKE POOL WORTH MILLIONS!!

IF I CAN TELL YOU ALL ANYTHING...LIKE Andrew Cleary SO FAMOUSLY SAID!!!

DO THE MATH!!

IT WILL TELL YOU WHAT IS REALLY GOING ON....AND HOW MUCH THEY ARE STEALING FROM US...WHILE TELLING US HOW MUCH THEY ARE GIVING BACK AND ADDING!! )

HOLLAR ATCHYA BOY!

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JCIN said:

Whoever wrote that needs to grow a set and sign it.

Anonymity is for cowards.

The very attitude of "doesn't want to be named, for fear of political or economic backlash" is how things get as bad as they are. This isnt the Soviet Union in the 50's. No one is going to disappear anyone. Its pool. What the hell kind of political or economic repercussions could there be to posting an opinion shared by 95% of the people in the game?

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AtLarge said:

Jay -- While I agree with a good bit of your sentiment here regarding DP and the ballyhooing, your numbers are off, and I hope that didn't keep Dennis from playing.

The "World Tournament of 14.1," in both 2013 and 2014, had a purse of $54,000, not $40,000. The added money was $30,000 (thanks largely, I think, to Dr. Fedak), not $8,000. The number of spots was limited to 48, not 64. The prizes were $13,000 for 1st, then $6,500, $3,450 (3rd-4th), $2,500 (5th-8th), etc. So perhaps Dennis would have cleared expenses by finishing in the top 8, not just top 3 (but I don't know what his expenses would have been)? And the events included several players who traveled from Europe.

Yes, it is not a true WPA world championship and does not have the prize fund of those events. But it's the biggest 14.1 event around now, and many of us (spectators, at least) are glad for its existence. But, you're right that probably only the top 2 got a real good week's pay and, as with many "pro" pool events, I imagine the 48 players as a whole lost money (total expenses exceeding prize money).

As for Dennis, I hope he is able to play in it in the future. He has done well in some of the 14.1 challenge events.

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pro9dg said:

!?? Dur !?!?

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jay helfert said:

Regardless of how this tournament or any other is marketed, there will always be a bottom line that most players will look at. Can I make money here and is this a good deal for me? The smart players who care about their bottom line will make a choice whether to play or not based on the above.

As an example Dragon put on a Men's Straight Pool event last year, inviting up to 64 players to compete. It was in New York and the entry fee was $500 and it was a four day event. With a full field the total purse came to $40,000. That means there was $8,000 in added money. My friend Dennis Orcollo was invited to play, and he would have had to fly from Los Angeles, spend at least five nights in an expensive hotel and pay a big entry fee to participate. I added up the numbers for him and told him he would have to finish third to break even!

Only the winner did okay here, with $10,000 the top prize and $5,000 for second. Third was like $3,000 I believe. It may have been only $2,500. Amazing to me, they got a full field of 64 suckers. Oops I mean players. Almost all were East Coast based, so they didn't have to fly in. I did take the time to call Charlie and ask him to waive Dennis' entry fee and maybe then he would come. No deal, so Dennis chose not to attend.

Again what amazes me is that they actually got 64 players for this aforementioned event. I guess it's a case of "If we can get them to come for almost no money, why not?"

Granted Dragon has produced some good events in the past, but events like these are not among them. And to bally-hoo them as if they are major pool tournaments is ridiculous. Most of the "major's" today have a purse well in excess of $100,000, with 25-40K on top. Even Manny Pacquiao's upcoming tournament has a purse of $150,000, with small entry fees and inexpensive accommodations, and yet he is only advertising it as what it actually is, a vanity event put on by him due to his love of the sport. There is no way Manny will make any money from this tournament. And many top players will be in attendance, with 40K on top in the Doubles portion of this tournament. Bottom line here, "Money talks and bullshit walks."

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DP.News said:

Thank you for posting the accurate info. Hopefully Jay Helfert will see and absorb.

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DP.News said:

Jay Helfert-
You are extremely inaccurate of your math on the World Tournament of 14.1 .
The added money was $30,000 added this year, and between $25,000-$35,000 added the past 9 years. Thanks to our many supporters and of course our patron sponsor Dr. Michael Fedak.

Also, the 2014 Women's International Pool Championship is a $20,500 added event. Unlike the erroneous story run by the WPA.

Prior to that, Dragon Promotions has added $75,000 - $80,000+ yearly for 5 consecutive years to the Women's World 10-Ball. No small feat in pool.

For a person that has run former events, (and by the way as tournament director of the WPA/BCA sanctioned points event the US Open 9-Ball, we hope you are able to attach your name to events that pay the players in full on time again. )

Perhaps more research is in order before you and other entities make statements in public on other events they obviously have nothing to do with the work equity and finances.

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