ABR SPECIAL REPORT: Dragon promotions 10ball event

[JCIN]

oh I agree with you Justin, but here's the catch, Dragon has sent notice that they intend to sue multiple parties involved in this whole debacle for defamation and damages etc etc. not even kidding.

right or wrong, I cant say that I blame the writer for wanting to avoid that possible shitstorm.

this might be the most ridiculous bunch of crap Ive ever witnessed

#highwaytohell

I understand wanting to not get sued. My problem is is that if someone in the industry wants to fire off a shot at someone else in the industry they should have the courage to back that statement with their name. If you tell the truth thats a very good defense against a lawsuit. If you are too scared of getting sued to use your name then just get in the corner with the rest of the sheep and accept the fate you are given.

The internet has bred an entire generation of people who are willing to stand up as long as it couldnt possibly cost them anything. It just tilts the shit out of me is all.

Having someone else post your anonymous statement for you is taking being a pussy to the next level. I know you only did it to help someone out and this isnt a shot at you. Your podcast is one of the very few real media outlets in the game. I respect what you do tremendously.

I'm not on Dragons side here. I have been fairly vocal about my opinion on their promotion techniques. But I have been the target of people in the industry who railed on my company behind the veil of anonymity and its bullshit plain and simple.

 

[jay helfert]

Jay -- While I agree with a good bit of your sentiment here regarding DP and the ballyhooing, your numbers are off, and I hope that didn't keep Dennis from playing.

The "World Tournament of 14.1," in both 2013 and 2014, had a purse of $54,000, not $40,000. The added money was $30,000 (thanks largely, I think, to Dr. Fedak), not $8,000. The number of spots was limited to 48, not 64. The prizes were $13,000 for 1st, then $6,500, $3,450 (3rd-4th), $2,500 (5th-8th), etc. So perhaps Dennis would have cleared expenses by finishing in the top 8, not just top 3 (but I don't know what his expenses would have been)? And the events included several players who traveled from Europe.

Yes, it is not a true WPA world championship and does not have the prize fund of those events. But it's the biggest 14.1 event around now, and many of us (spectators, at least) are glad for its existence. But, you're right that probably only the top 2 got a real good week's pay and, as with many "pro" pool events, I imagine the 48 players as a whole lost money (total expenses exceeding prize money).

As for Dennis, I hope he is able to play in it in the future. He has done well in some of the 14.1 challenge events.

You better double check on 2013. They didn't add that much money that year, much less in fact.

Here's the bottom line on this so called International Pool Championship. The $500 entry fee is too high for most women players and the low added money makes it unattractive for most of the top women players. Some piss poor marketing decisions were made here imo. Better they make the entry fee about $200, add the $10,000 and bill it as a major regional tournament, aka The New York State Women's Straight Pool Championship. This would have wide appeal in this country and probably attract a full field (64) of players. It would have been a feather in the cap for Dragon and avoided all the controversy. But I'm just a guy in a diner, so why listen to me.

 

[buddha162]

blah blah blah

So Cindy Lee, is it true you/Charlie are planning on suing people over your bullshit event? First person you should sue is CW; second one is yourself.

 

[jay helfert]

Thank you for posting the accurate info. Hopefully Jay Helfert will see and absorb.

The tournament you invited Dennis to had 64 players and less than $10,000 in added money (total purse $40,000!). Maybe it was a Ten Ball event, I could be wrong there. Shane won and got $10,000 and second place got $5,000. You can tell us all about that one please.

I've supported DP events before, but not this time. Once again, high entry fees and low added money makes for a near impossible situation for pro players. But we both know that, whoever you are, Ms. DP.

 

[jay helfert]

Jay Helfert-
You are extremely inaccurate of your math on the World Tournament of 14.1 .
The added money was $30,000 added this year, and between $25,000-$35,000 added the past 9 years. Thanks to our many supporters and of course our patron sponsor Dr. Michael Fedak.

Also, the 2014 Women's International Pool Championship is a $20,500 added event. Unlike the erroneous story run by the WPA.

Prior to that, Dragon Promotions has added $75,000 - $80,000+ yearly for 5 consecutive years to the Women's World 10-Ball. No small feat in pool.

For a person that has run former events, (and by the way as tournament director of the WPA/BCA sanctioned points event the US Open 9-Ball, we hope you are able to attach your name to events that pay the players in full on time again. )

Perhaps more research is in order before you and other entities make statements in public on other events they obviously have nothing to do with the work equity and finances.

I do attach my name to all posts I make, unlike some other entities who post on here. I don't need to hide behind a veil to speak my mind. I operate the same way in person as well, as you already know.

 

[liakos]

I do attach my name to all posts I make, unlike some other entities who post on here. I don't need to hide behind a veil to speak my mind. I operate the same way in person as well, as you already know.

Love your style sir!

 

[MahnaMahna]

Listening to the interviews, and reading the posts and articles on here I will say this:

It is incredibly obvious who is a business professional trying to operate a business/organization, and who is a pool player acting like they have a clue as to what they are doing.

Personally, I hope there are lots of lawsuits, boycotts, and lack of profitability for several of these major organizations. How they have made it this far thinking and operating the way they have been is fvcking ridiculous. They deserve nothing less than total failure and public humiliation for their lack of common sense and professionalism.

 

[jay helfert]

You better double check on 2013. They didn't add that much money that year, much less in fact.

Here's the bottom line on this so called International Pool Championship. The $500 entry fee is too high for most women players and the low added money makes it unattractive for most of the top women players. Some piss poor marketing decisions were made here imo. Better they make the entry fee about $200, add the $10,000 and bill it as a major regional tournament, aka The New York State Women's Straight Pool Championship. This would have wide appeal in this country and probably attract a full field (64) of players. It would have been a feather in the cap for Dragon and avoided all the controversy. But I'm just a guy in a diner, so why listen to me.

I added to my original post and I wanted all interested parties to see it.

 

[cueman]

Also, the 2014 Women's International Pool Championship is a $20,500 added event. Unlike the erroneous story run by the WPA.

Prior to that, Dragon Promotions has added $75,000 - $80,000+ yearly for 5 consecutive years to the Women's World 10-Ball. No small feat in pool.

People need to face the fact that pool has taken a down turn. I make my living in this industry and it is just a fact that it has been in a slump. It is mind boggling to me that people would call Charlie a POS on here for only adding $20,500 to an event when he was able to add more in previous years.
It is also mind boggling to me that those in charge of women's pool would keep their players from a payday when they have not produced a tour strong enough to make the top 64 or even top 32 a decent living.

Go ahead and like Charlie or dislike him, but put something better together yourself before running him down when he is at least doing something.

 

[PINKLADY]

....Dragon has sent notice that they intend to sue multiple parties involved in this whole debacle for defamation and damages etc etc.....

Honey, understand it for the PMS that it is. cause no business person in their right mind with blatant "misrepresentation" (oh, and probably provable "fraud"!) hanging over their head, would be so stupid as to insinuate this.

where's that BS flag????

PS - "defamation of character"? :rotflmao1:

 

[AtLarge]

You better double check on 2013. ...

OK, with one mystery, here are the purses for the World 14.1 for the past 9 years (from the AzB tournament records, and if I added correctly):

2014 -- $54,000
2013 -- $54,000
2012 -- $52,000 or $44,000?
2011 -- $70,200
2010 -- $45,700
2009 -- $39,800
2008 -- $57,600
2007 -- $52,600
2006 -- $52,000

The mystery is for 2012, the year John Schmidt won. Under the records for each of the players finishing in the top 24 that year, there are two different entries for this event (with slightly different names for the event), with two different lists of the payouts -- one paying 32 places and totaling $52,000, and the other paying 24 places and totaling $44,000.

So when I first saw the $44,000 list for 2012, Jay, it looked to me like you had just gotten the year wrong when you said "last year.". But then I noticed the $52,000 list, so it's a mystery to me right now. My records from watching the streaming in 2012 indicate that the round-robin portion of the tournament involved 48 players (8 groups of 6). Did they pay 32 out of 48?

I did not try to find entry fees and, therefore, money added for each of these events.

 

[Mr. Bond]

Honey, understand it for the PMS that it is. cause no business person in their right mind with blatant "misrepresentation" (oh, and probably provable "fraud"!) hanging over their head, would be so stupid as to insinuate this.

where's that BS flag????

PS - "defamation of character"? :rotflmao1:

well see, here's the thing...
private communications cant be considered defamation because its not public.
(neither can facts)
defecation, maybe, but not defamation lol
however, if someone were to take legal action, guess what?
all the "private" details become public record. forever.

be careful what u wish for. that's all I'm trying to say

how about that weather ! its a chilly mofo out there.

 

[JAM]

Thank you for posting the accurate info. Hopefully Jay Helfert will see and absorb.

Where's "grapevine" these days? Usually, grapevine chimes in with support of Dragon and CW.

How many identities does Dragon and CW have on AzBilliards today? Just curious.

Interesting that most of them have IP addresses in Florida, CW's neck of the woods, but, hey, maybe you all are using the same computer to post. I understand that, but sign your name to your post so folks at least know who's writing the words.

Does CW or Dragon have anything to hide which would require them to hide the identify of the writer of the post? If not, then do it. You are an industry member using this forum to advertise. Least you could do is be a Gold Member and support the forum if you're going to use it for profit.

 

[jay helfert]

OK, with one mystery, here are the purses for the World 14.1 for the past 9 years (from the AzB tournament records, and if I added correctly):

2014 -- $54,000
2013 -- $54,000
2012 -- $52,000 or $44,000?
2011 -- $70,200
2010 -- $45,700
2009 -- $39,800
2008 -- $57,600
2007 -- $52,600
2006 -- $52,000

The mystery is for 2012, the year John Schmidt won. Under the records for each of the players finishing in the top 24 that year, there are two different entries for this event (with slightly different names for the event), with two different lists of the payouts -- one paying 32 places and totaling $52,000, and the other paying 24 places and totaling $44,000.

So when I first saw the $44,000 list for 2012, Jay, it looked to me like you had just gotten the year wrong when you said "last year.". But then I noticed the $52,000 list, so it's a mystery to me right now. My records from watching the streaming in 2012 indicate that the round-robin portion of the tournament involved 48 players (8 groups of 6). Did they pay 32 out of 48?

I did not try to find entry fees and, therefore, money added for each of these events.

Thanks for this. So in the last nine years they actually had one tournament with a decent purse (2011). The rest could qualify as nice regional events, along the lines of the U.S. (NOT World) Bar Table Championships and Turning Stone. I'm in the process of putting on a $60,000 tournament with NO entry fee and only sixteen players. That would make it bigger than all but one of these so-called World Championships. I would not allow them to add the name "World" to this tournament, even though they wanted to. It is not a World anything. It is what it is, a great event for the sixteen invited players. I make no attempt to misrepresent it as anything else. And that's my point here and why I agree with the WPA stand regarding this tournament. By the way it is still being described as a World Championship on Facebook, as of yesterday. So the name change is only partial and superficial. What does that tell you?

 

[Scott Lee]

I see you have deleted the "World" from your event title now...no doubt because of pressure from the powers that be. Seems more like you're the ones disseminating "erroneous" information. :rotflmao1:

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

Also, the 2014 Women's International Pool Championship is a $20,500 added event. Unlike the erroneous story run by the WPA.