Some thoughts about playing on fast cushions

Johnnyt · Mar 8, 2016

I've said it 100 times. Simonis is way too fast for a 7' Diamond or other 7' table. Almost any brand of cloth will play better than Simonis 760 or 860 on a 7' table. What happened with the slower cloth simonis was going to make per Greg? Simonis=peer pressure. Johnnyt

realkingcobra · Mar 8, 2016

Johnnyt said:
I've said it 100 times. Simonis is way too fast for a 7' Diamond or other 7' table. Almost any brand of cloth will play better than Simonis 760 or 860 on a 7' table. What happened with the slower cloth simonis was going to make per Greg? Simonis=peer pressure. Johnnyt

I totally dissagree with creating a slower cloth for 7ft pool tables because the effort it takes to draw the cue ball back 12" on a 9ft, shouldn't require more effort on a 7ft"....it should be the same.

Ruthless · Mar 8, 2016

realkingcobra said:
Just wondering, did you rebuild the rails to adapt the Artemis cushions to fit?

No modifications needed to put the Intercontinental #66 rails with a K55 profile on Gold Crown 1 - 3's (I've never tried them on 4 or 5's). The Artemis rails are the same rails as a Diamond Pro-Am. If you cut the rail angles at 141 degrees on the corners they will be the same angle as the Pro-Am also. (They are not black rails on a Pro-Am either, I can post pics of the whole process from start to finish). I did also use the Simonis 860HR because I live in Florida where the humidity is high. Also 7' Diamond tables with Simonis 860 play fine as long as they are done correctly.

The part that makes the GC play better than the Diamond is that the GC 1 & 2 tables have a much better constructed base and weigh a few more hundred pounds for stability (My GC 1 = 1340 lbs). So I guess you could say that I have a Brunswick / Diamond hybrid actually.

Concerning this changing or making a poor stroke better, that's a fantasy.... If your stroke is not any good my table will make you cry. I started being a table mechanic, managing and building pool rooms in 1984 and even made the cover of P & B Mag in September 1999 for building one of the top 10 upscale rooms in the USA. I am a very well respected player and building contractor that has built several parts of Disney World, Universal Studios, Sea World, 4 Hard Rock Hotels, 2 Planet Hollywood Nightclubs, 14 major Hospitals, etc.... (the list could go on for weeks and I am good enough at building that I retired at age 45).

(Artemis rails before being covered)

(Artemis rails covered and box built and ready to flip on to table)

realkingcobra · Mar 8, 2016

Ruthless said:
No modifications needed to put the Intercontinental #66 rails with a K55 profile on Gold Crown 1 - 3's (I've never tried them on 4 or 5's). The Artemis rails are the same rails as a Diamond Pro-Am. If you cut the rail angles at 141 degrees on the corners they will be the same angle as the Pro-Am also. (They are not black rails on a Pro-Am either, I can post pics of the whole process from start to finish). I did also use the Simonis 860HR because I live in Florida where the humidity is high. Also 7' Diamond tables with Simonis 860 play fine as long as they are done correctly.

The part that makes the GC play better than the Diamond is that the GC 1 & 2 tables have a much better constructed base and weigh a few more hundred pounds for stability (My GC 1 = 1340 lbs). So I guess you could say that I have a Brunswick / Diamond hybrid actually.

Concerning this changing or making a poor stroke better, that's a fantasy.... If your stroke is not any good my table will make you cry. I started being a table mechanic, managing and building pool rooms in 1984 and even made the cover of P & B Mag in September 1999 for building one of the top 10 upscale rooms in the USA. I am a very well respected player and building contractor that has built several parts of Disney World, Universal Studios, Sea World, 4 Hard Rock Hotels, 2 Planet Hollywood Nightclubs, 14 major Hospitals, etc.... (the list could go on for weeks and I am good enough at building that I retired at age 45).

(Artemis rails before being covered)

(Artemis rails covered and box built and ready to flip on to table)

You do know the Monarch SuperSpeed cushions on the 1's were only 1 1/8" wide and the Artemis K55 is 1 1/4" wide, which changes the playing surface by a 1/4" all the way around right?

Ruthless · Mar 8, 2016

Everything was adjusted so that the playing surface size is the same as original (or within 1/8"). And GC 1 did not come with the "Super Speed" rails... standard Monarch rails were used on them until years later. The 1964 Monarch rails that we removed were still fine and reused on another table that needed them. The rails I used were the Artemis Intercontinental Number 66 rails.. but they do have the K55 profile. Artemis does make a Number 55 rail but it is a totally different profile from what the GC's use. I spent around $3K and 6 months to restore that table with the very best of everything made today. Nothing was overlooked and money was no issue in making it the very best of the best (I trashed the ball return and converted it to drop pocket with deeper 10 ball pockets that are virtually flat to the surface).

KissedOut · Mar 8, 2016

Ruthless said:
I matched up the Simonis 860 (760 is billiard table cloth) with the Artemis Intercontinental No. 66 rails (K55 profile) on my Gold crown 1 when I restored it last year and it's the best playing table in Florida. I also pro cut the pockets at 4 1/4" corners and 4 1/2" sides. It's fast and most importantly it plays true. After you play on my table for a while it makes other 9' tables seem like 8' tables with buckets for pockets. It will frustrate most low level players and better players just want to keep practicing on it because it will lift your game a ball or so if you're willing to spend the time. It's in it's own 8K sq ft building and takes up it's own office that stays 74F @ 40% humidity 24/7 also (1st picture is before room was completed).

Minor correction. Simonis 760 is not their billiard table (by which I assume you mean carom) cloth, the 300 is.

Ruthless · Mar 8, 2016

KissedOut said:
Minor correction. Simonis 760 is not their billiard table (by which I assume you mean carom) cloth, the 300 is.

760 is not really a good pool table cloth. Actually the speed of 760 was an issue and the owner of Diamond worked with Simonis in developing "860" as an alternative to make their tables playable in pro events. Most of the 760 now is used on billiard and snooker tables throughout the USA and rarely used on pocket billiard (pool) tables. It is not recommended for pool tables by any knowledgeable table mechanic or room builder.

Mr. Bond · Mar 8, 2016

Since there is no established standard of what the perfect cushion should do, ask yourself this question: Should a cushion be like a mirror and reflect back exactly what it sees with no distortion? Should the ball leave the cushion at (as close as possible to) the same speed it made contact, and at an angle that is exactly proportionate to the angle of incoming contact?

Would that make them too fast?
I don't know, but I do know that you want to be able to use the rails a) without taking too much energy out of the ball, b) without distorting the path you have chosen for the ball. Both of those characteristics are crucial.

Ruthless · Mar 8, 2016

If you want to listen to Greg (owner of Diamond) talk about 760, 860 and other cloth used it can be seen here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qQCWA9LFhu0

He explains the method of testing used in creating Simonis 860 to replace the 760 to be used in pro events at length in this inteview.

Ruthless · Mar 8, 2016

Mr. Bond said:
Since there is no established standard of what the perfect cushion should do, ask yourself this question: Should a cushion be like a mirror and reflect back exactly what it sees with no distortion? Should the ball leave the cushion at (as close as possible to) the same speed it made contact, and at an angle that is exactly proportionate to the angle of incoming contact?

Would that make them too fast?
I don't know, but I do know that you want to be able to use the rails a) without taking too much energy out of the ball, b) without distorting the path you have chosen for the ball. Both of those characteristics are crucial.

The reason I chose Artemis rails is because like I said in the beginning "they play true". After doing thousands of tables over the years and playing in about every major room in the nation. I found the Artemis rails to be the most consistent that you can buy in speed and ball reflection / deflection (at all speeds). I'm a bank player mostly, so rails are a big issue in the decisions that I made. Money is not an issue with me and I can buy whatever I please, but I wanted the best playing table I could put together and now have the best of both the Brunswick and Diamond worlds combined to make a table that took the best of both and made one a step better (I had the 1st Diamond table in Florida in 1988 = No Label table).

lbostons · Mar 8, 2016

I'm curious, how often does Brunswick or Diamond consider new products for their designs? I find it interesting that the owner of Diamond worked with Simonis to develop a new cloth. Does anyone have insight into this? I work for an R&D firm and we constantly are working on things to stay cutting edge. I just wonder how much this is happening in the pool industry. I know there has been big jumps in cues. Thanks

realkingcobra · Mar 8, 2016

lbostons said:
I'm curious, how often does Brunswick or Diamond consider new products for their designs? I find it interesting that the owner of Diamond worked with Simonis to develop a new cloth. Does anyone have insight into this? I work for an R&D firm and we constantly are working on things to stay cutting edge. I just wonder how much this is happening in the pool industry. I know there has been big jumps in cues. Thanks

A lot of the changes and improvements are behind curtains so to speak, like my working with Simonis on the development of the 860HR doing field testing and giving my feed back and ideas for change.

Ruthless · Mar 8, 2016

Like the name "realkingcobra" ... I have a little toy I play with that
s a 1996 SVT Cobra that turns 9.63 1/4 miles @ 147mph (Built 351 with Paxton Novi 2000 supercharger that hits1,000+ hp) that I drive on weekends. Love my little Cobra

Ruthless · Mar 8, 2016

I've got way too many toys, 3 bass boats, air boat, 2 big 4 wheelers, 2 tricked Harleys, jet skis, big Jeeps and mud trucks also, if the one with the most toys in the end wins I'll be up in the top ranks

.. this is my 1974 Luv truck that I bought from the Ernhardt family that I run in the 8.50 bracket (built 350 with a 250 shot of nitrous to each 1150 Dominator). Sorry I got off of the pool subject

(Street legal in Florida)

realkingcobra · Mar 8, 2016

Ruthless said:
Everything was adjusted so that the playing surface size is the same as original (or within 1/8"). And GC 1 did not come with the "Super Speed" rails... standard Monarch rails were used on them until years later.

I just pulled this cushion off a set of GC1 rails, does that Brunswick label read "Brunswick Monarch Super Speed cushions"

realkingcobra · Mar 8, 2016

This cushion measures 1 1/8" across the top, and 1 3/16" on the back, glue side. The newer Artemis and Superspeed cushions measure 1 1/4" across the top, and 1 5/16" across the glue side, so a straight swap over means the playing surface shrinks by 1/4" all the way around, and yes the rails can be mounted further out on the pocket castings, but that also makes the corner pockets bigger, and if the sub rails are not corrected to fit the larger cushions, they end up hanging over the the bottom of the sub rail bottom and can't be fully glued to the sub rail wood...because the cushion won't line up with the glued wood all the way.

KissedOut · Mar 9, 2016

Ruthless said:
760 is not really a good pool table cloth. Actually the speed of 760 was an issue and the owner of Diamond worked with Simonis in developing "860" as an alternative to make their tables playable in pro events. Most of the 760 now is used on billiard and snooker tables throughout the USA and rarely used on pocket billiard (pool) tables. It is not recommended for pool tables by any knowledgeable table mechanic or room builder.

And no knowledgeable billiard (carom) player would want to play on any simonis other than the 300. The fact that some people put the wrong cloth on a billiard table does not change that.

Allen Brown · Mar 9, 2016

realkingcobra said:
I totally dissagree with creating a slower cloth for 7ft pool tables because the effort it takes to draw the cue ball back 12" on a 9ft, shouldn't require more effort on a 7ft"....it should be the same.

We are actually in agreement about something. Imagine that....

Ruthless · Mar 9, 2016

realkingcobra said:
View attachment 415014

This cushion measures 1 1/8" across the top, and 1 3/16" on the back, glue side. The newer Artemis and Superspeed cushions measure 1 1/4" across the top, and 1 5/16" across the glue side, so a straight swap over means the playing surface shrinks by 1/4" all the way around, and yes the rails can be mounted further out on the pocket castings, but that also makes the corner pockets bigger, and if the sub rails are not corrected to fit the larger cushions, they end up hanging over the the bottom of the sub rail bottom and can't be fully glued to the sub rail wood...because the cushion won't line up with the glued wood all the way.

It's a later than 1965 GC1 then. Mine has 5/16/1962 etched on the corner castings. It came with Monarch standard rails and all you need to do is look at the original Brunswick Owners and Service manuals that will tell you when the "SuperSpeed" rail were introduced.... easy to find info. But the Artemis Intercontinental No. 66 rails are a direct replacement for the Monarch rails on a Gold Crown without any modifications needed. Brunswick does not keep or have any records on when any GC table was made. I actually replaced the skirts on my table with skirts off of a GC 2 because I didn't like the fiberglass parts on the early GC1 tables... The only real way to identify GC 1 & 2 tables for sure is the score counters are much larger and flat to the table. But dating manufacture is impossible without the original receipt and shipping label.

ivicafranic · Mar 9, 2016

Play slowly

Some thoughts about playing on fast cushions

Burn all jump cues

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