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Dan White
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04-23-2017, 12:58 PM

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Originally Posted by BeiberLvr View Post
Hi Dan,

Care to guess how many of your posts out of the last 100 have NOT been related to CTE?

If it's an insult to point out that you have severe emotional issues and are incapable of letting things go, then by all means, report me.

I'll serve my "time" for speaking the truth.

g'day
I post very infrequently here lately until Poolology came out, so I don't know the answer to your question. I was interested in sacman learning CTE and having questions, so I did pose some questions to him to see where he was at. Other than that, I don't think I've mentioned CTE at all. I'm waiting for the book.

For the record, actually, I see in your more recent posts that you have been thinking mostly rationally.


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Neil
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04-23-2017, 01:09 PM

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Originally Posted by Dan White View Post
Neil and bieber: How long do I have to ignore your posts for you to realize that I really don't care what you have to say. You already said everything you seem to know like a year ago. My interest in CTE is nearly zero until Stan's book comes out. At the same time, if I am interested in something that might just happen to be related to CTE then I might actually want to discuss it.

You can continue to insult me and try to set me off as you have been doing for a long time, and probably will not get in trouble with it. In any event, any insults from here on out will be reported to Mr. Wilson, who may or may not care. It's for you to find out.

My apologies to Mr. Wilson for bothering you with this crap, but at some point the jabs and insults have to stop.

This is hopefully my last word on the personal attacks and fake claims of "baiting." I mean, come on guys.
Report all you want to. Maybe then Wilson will see what you are really doing here. You asked a question, I answered it. Very on topic. That you would report it only proves what you are about. I never insulted you, only pointed out the truth. Unlike you have done. If you don't want answers, then don't ask questions.
  
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Dan White
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04-23-2017, 01:56 PM

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Originally Posted by Neil View Post
Report all you want to. Maybe then Wilson will see what you are really doing here. You asked a question, I answered it. Very on topic. That you would report it only proves what you are about. I never insulted you, only pointed out the truth. Unlike you have done. If you don't want answers, then don't ask questions.
Never reported you, Neil. About the bold part, lol. You don't seem to be capable of addressing me without the insult. That's why I have ignored you for maybe a year. If you change that (and you seem to be relatively normal on other forums) then we can start over and all play in the same sand box.

Let's move on. Check out my recent post under "Comments on Poolology." If any of you have trouble with long back cuts, this is "the tits" as they say.


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05-01-2017, 02:01 PM

Google is failing me what is CTE. Also, acronyms!!
  
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Mr. Wilson
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05-01-2017, 03:23 PM

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Originally Posted by Hollismason View Post
Google is failing me what is CTE. Also, acronyms!!
CTE = center to edge


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05-23-2017, 10:02 PM

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Originally Posted by BC21 View Post
To perform a task in an objective manner (whether it's shooting an OB into a pocket or climbing straight up the face of a rock cliff) means the process does not require personal opinion or individual judgement. If rock climbing is the task, there are hundreds, if not thousands, of hand-grabs and feet-placement combinations that one could use. Simply telling a person to use their hands, feet, and eyes to climb the cliff does not constitute an objective climbing method. Too much is left up to personal opinion/judgement, making the climb subject-dependent. In other words, it would be the climber's individual choices that gets him (or her) to the top. This is the subjective method.

Now let's apply the same logic to aiming pool shots. The rote method of learning to aim is purely subjective. Each player learns through their own renditions of trial and error. Ghostball is also subjective because it is nearly impossible for the average player to accurately visualize the center of an invisible ball with repeated consistency. Traditional fractional aiming by the quarters method is subjective due to the fact that choosing the appropriate aim point is purely based on individual interpretation of angles. However, a fractional aiming method that provides this information would be objective because there​ would be no individual interpretations. Pivot systems, which includes the CTE manual pivot method, are actually objective within specific shot parameters, then become subjective when shots fall outside of those parameters, forcing the player to estimate or guesstimate some sort of compensation or visual correction. Most players develop their own way of doing it. Just go surfing on YouTube for 30 minutes and you'll find numerous players doing their "own" version of CTE. That alone is proof that either the system is too complicated to learn as designed (like studying string theory), or it's purely subjective, dependent on personal perceptions/opinions.

This has been the aiming debate for as long as I can remember.....we hear "this system is objective, unlike these other systems that are not objective." Well, here's a good test for determining objectivity:

If a player can use a certain method to pocket a ball and get immediate results in a quick, simple, and accurate manner, within a few seconds, then show another player the same method, who then gets the same immediate results, the method is undeniably objective. It would be like numbering the rocks for hand-holds and feet-placements on a rock cliff so every climber has a guaranteed path to the top if they prefer to take it.

If you have to spend weeks or years trying to figure out a certain method, whether your shooting pool or climbing rocks, the method you're using is not objective.
That's why it's taking so long to learn, because the method is subject-dependent, better known as subjective.

What are your thoughts? Anyone?
Brian this seems like a backhanded knock on CTE. I will tell you this, I have taught people CTE (more like introduced and explained what I know) and had some of them pick up on it IMMEDIATELY and had others take a lot longer to absorb it.

I tried your method as best I could understand it from your description and there is a lot of estimation from my perspective making it more subjective than CTE for me at the moment. I figured that I need to spend more time with it to really be sure I am doing it properly.

One thing I know from experience with teaching jumping is that there is no one size fits all approach that works. I tried that for about half a day before I realized I would need to figure out more ways to bring people to the same conclusion. Ultimately I had developed five or six ways to get the same point across that I could use.

Look at math. Is there anything more objective than math? Yet there are hundreds of ways to teach math because not every person processes information the same way.

What I have seen of aiming systems is that they run the gamut from simple steps to complicated steps and sometimes the simple steps are impossible for a person to get and that same person somehow locks on to the complicated ones easier. So you can't point to any given person and say well I taught him x-system and he was instantly able to repeat the shots so x-system is objective and I tried to teach him y-system and he wasn't able to repeat the steps so y-system is subjective. No, all you proved is that ONE person understood one method easier than another. Until you run a study under controlled conditions with hundreds of subjects you can't really make any hard conclusion that stands up.

All that said without precision measuring instruments all aiming systems are "subjective" in that the user MUST make a judgement call that his visual information has placed him correctly using the instructions he understands. But with practice and experience the system can feel like no feel at all and be as close to objectively precise as humanly possible.

The important part is this. When an experienced user can look at a shot and call out the aiming "key" to another user in another location and that user can step up and without hesitation quickly aim and pocket the ball - and this happens over and over and over for a wide range of shots - then we can definitely say that the system is objective.

It's like a mechanic yelling across the room telling another mechanic what to do. Both men are well versed the intricacies of engine construction so they can speak objectively about the precise steps to repair any problem. However a mechanic would be speaking a foreign language trying to tell me how to fix anything on an engine.


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BC21
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05-24-2017, 05:30 AM

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Originally Posted by JB Cases View Post
Brian this seems like a backhanded knock on CTE. I will tell you this, I have taught people CTE (more like introduced and explained what I know) and had some of them pick up on it IMMEDIATELY and had others take a lot longer to absorb it.

I tried your method as best I could understand it from your description and there is a lot of estimation from my perspective making it more subjective than CTE for me at the moment. I figured that I need to spend more time with it to really be sure I am doing it properly.

One thing I know from experience with teaching jumping is that there is no one size fits all approach that works. I tried that for about half a day before I realized I would need to figure out more ways to bring people to the same conclusion. Ultimately I had developed five or six ways to get the same point across that I could use.

Look at math. Is there anything more objective than math? Yet there are hundreds of ways to teach math because not every person processes information the same way.

What I have seen of aiming systems is that they run the gamut from simple steps to complicated steps and sometimes the simple steps are impossible for a person to get and that same person somehow locks on to the complicated ones easier. So you can't point to any given person and say well I taught him x-system and he was instantly able to repeat the shots so x-system is objective and I tried to teach him y-system and he wasn't able to repeat the steps so y-system is subjective. No, all you proved is that ONE person understood one method easier than another. Until you run a study under controlled conditions with hundreds of subjects you can't really make any hard conclusion that stands up.

All that said without precision measuring instruments all aiming systems are "subjective" in that the user MUST make a judgement call that his visual information has placed him correctly using the instructions he understands. But with practice and experience the system can feel like no feel at all and be as close to objectively precise as humanly possible.

The important part is this. When an experienced user can look at a shot and call out the aiming "key" to another user in another location and that user can step up and without hesitation quickly aim and pocket the ball - and this happens over and over and over for a wide range of shots - then we can definitely say that the system is objective.

It's like a mechanic yelling across the room telling another mechanic what to do. Both men are well versed the intricacies of engine construction so they can speak objectively about the precise steps to repair any problem. However a mechanic would be speaking a foreign language trying to tell me how to fix anything on an engine.
Yes, I see how experience plays a major part. I do believe, when it comes to skill-oriented tasks, people call something "objective" simply because to them, personally, it seems objective. That includes me, you, Stan, and anyone else that posseses certain acquired skills on a pool table. There is a solid line between objective and subjective when various skill levels are factored in. I suppose I started this thread to highlight that line. If I'm doing method A and you're doing B, and we both say our methods are objective, then I try B only to find that it requires visuals that I'm not sure about it, it is subjective to me. Same goes if you try method A. I guess this actually makes most visually-oriented tasks (where experience and skill are required) subjective in nature. And that would apply to all aiming systems.

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stan shuffett
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05-24-2017, 05:43 AM

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Originally Posted by BC21 View Post
Yes, I see how experience plays a major part. I do believe, when it comes to skill-oriented tasks, people call something "objective" simply because to them, personally, it seems objective. That includes me, you, Stan, and anyone else that posseses certain acquired skills on a pool table. There is a solid line between objective and subjective when various skill levels are factored in. I suppose I started this thread to highlight that line. If I'm doing method A and you're doing B, and we both say our methods are objective, then I try B only to find that it requires visuals that I'm not sure about it, it us subjective to me. Same goes if you try method A. I guess this actually makes most visually-oriented tasks (where experience and skill is required) subjective in nature. And that would apply to all aiming systems.
The pass is over!
Fractions is an approximation bridge V placement system.
Please don't lump CTE into the discussion at every opportunity as you clearly do not understand it. Bridge V placement in CTE is NOT an approximation.

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05-24-2017, 04:51 PM

Come on, Stan, I was replying to very civil comments made by John B, not "lumping" cte into the discussion. It was already the discussion.

And this whole bridge V placement stuff is not a problem in fractional aiming. The reason is so obvious that I shouldn't have to explain it, but I suppose I should....

With CTE a center cue ball solution is the final product. In order to achieve the solution certain visuals fix the CB so that the player may somehow see or perceive a line that allows proper bridge V placement in order to develop the correct pivot or sweep needed to bring the cue stick to the proper aim line, the CCB solution. That perception part, which leads to bridge V placement, seems to be the part that many people have trouble grasping. The placement of the bridge V is a critical component that gets the player to the solution.

In fractional aiming, the solution is already known and the player simply places the bridge V in accordance with the basic fundamentals of a normal stroke along a known aim line.
  
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