Objective v/s Subjective aiming

[Straightpool_99]

Post deleted.

Posting here was a lapse in judgement. I've allready said all I have to say about aiming, no need to rehash.

 

[Mkindsv]

So what I am seeing is a lot of people agree that people(right handed) are hitting left of center after lining up dead-nuts-center-ball. I think it can also be agreed upon that Lining up one way, and then hitting another spot on the ball is a stroke/stance/PSR issue, not an aiming issue at all.

Why in the world would a person with vision issues (as stated earlier) be able to line up any better on ANY particular shot with an aiming system, or deliver a more consistent stroke because of said aiming system???

That being said, once the Stroke, the stance and the PSR are all working wonderfully, would that not be the time to "try" a system??? Or is it mostly people that can't perform the former attempting the latter as an attempt to shortcut developing the former?

Either way, still do not believe that center ball is horribly difficult to find, thinking that maybe changing your aiming to a new system every time the last one didn't work for every single shot may be making it hard to find center ball though...just my opinion.

Best of luck in all your endeavors!!!

 

[BeiberLvr]

I haven't seen very many if any right handed players who aim left or have a slight offset of the tip left of center and then swerve back to the right to hit center ball. It's an unnatural move even if accidental.

But I have seen plenty of players who can find and get dead on center ball and then strike the CB left of center.

The swerve doesn't occur in the forward stroke but actually in the back stroke. For a righty, depending on their feet and body alignment, the elbow, upper arm, and back hand gripping the cue drift ever so slightly away from the torso which changes the shaft alignment to be aimed left of center ball at the completion of the backstroke. When they transition into the forward stroke the cue goes very straight along the new line and strikes left of center every time.

A Jim Rempe training ball or Elephant training balls will illustrate it all day long based on the chalk smudge.

I'm actually the opposite. Right handed, and I almost always hit to the right of center.

 

[BeiberLvr]

FWIW,...........recently while playing, something didn't look right. I was not hitting the pocket exactly where I wanted. Not by much, but still not where I wanted.

See, my standard for a good shot is when all the balls go where I want.....not just close to where I want.

Turns out the CB was smaller then the other balls. The smaller CB required a change in where I put the CB when the CB was the same size as the other balls.

It's these little things like this, along with dirty balls, dirty table, humidity, spin, CB speed and so on that make using any system useless. There is no system that can take these variables into account.

Learning to adjust to playing conditions is a art that no system can teach. Only table time.......on a wide variety of tables and pocket openings can do this.

Too many are try to make a system "work" instead of learning how to win at pool.

I agree. Pool is an art form. Sometimes I like to practice for 2 hours just on four ball combos. What's the system for that? CTE to A, CTE to C, CTE to D, CTE to B and pivot. What's a pivot anyways? It can't be measured in measurable measures using real math. Right?

 

[Dan White]

I think it's where the two cushions would meet into a corner. If you were to use the diamonds, or even use the very edge of the table, it would still work as long as the rectangle used was a 2x1. The only difference is the ball would not be pocketed, and would actually be on a different track line (say a 3 rail route to a different pocket). If you were to hypothetically enlarge the rectangle to now be the size of the rectangle that the original diamonds would make, and extend the corner pockets to that size, you would probably be using a different perception.

But now you have me thinking...if you were to incrementally make each rectangle sliiiightly bigger than the last one infinitely outwards. How would there be enough categories...

Well here's my confusion, and I never tried getting an answer because I largely avoid these discussions until Stan's book comes out. However, this particular subject is fresh in my mind because I've been learning about Poolology and trying to understand a little better what happens to the cue ball at the pocket opening. That's why I asked if you understood it for CTE.

My concern is this: If you take an L square (ruler) and match it up to the cushion nose the point of the square will be the extension of the cushion lines to the exact corner you mentioned. This point is about an inch beyond the shelf for my table. If I am shooting a ball into the corner from a 45 degree angle, that means I am shooting straight down the center of the pocket, and over the point we just found. If I now move the ob to the side rail and pocket the ball, it is obvious that I cannot make the ball pass over the corner spot. In this case, the ball hits the side cushion about 1.5 inches away from the corner spot. There is no other way to pocket the ball.

If CTE puts the ob into center pocket where the extended point is every time, then there are many shots that cannot be made.

On the other hand, if CTE puts the ob into the center of the pocket opening depending on where the ob is on the table, then CTE sends the ob to different parts of the pocket depending where the ob starts out from.

It's just confusing to me, that's all, and it is also an interesting question for the Poolology method. In that method, I understand that some shots put the ball more in the center of the pocket than others, but there is enough slop in even tighter pockets to allow the balls to fall. My brief experience with Poolology so far makes me inclined to believe this is true.

 

[AtLarge]

... If you are using a table where the CB is a different size than the other balls on the table, just quit playing, that isn't a pool table worth playing IMHO.
...

I think English "Eight-Ball Pool" or Blackball traditionally used a CB smaller than the OB's. I don't know whether that is still the standard.

 

[tonythetiger583]

Well here's my confusion, and I never tried getting an answer because I largely avoid these discussions until Stan's book comes out. However, this particular subject is fresh in my mind because I've been learning about Poolology and trying to understand a little better what happens to the cue ball at the pocket opening. That's why I asked if you understood it for CTE.

My concern is this: If you take an L square (ruler) and match it up to the cushion nose the point of the square will be the extension of the cushion lines to the exact corner you mentioned. This point is about an inch beyond the shelf for my table. If I am shooting a ball into the corner from a 45 degree angle, that means I am shooting straight down the center of the pocket, and over the point we just found. If I now move the ob to the side rail and pocket the ball, it is obvious that I cannot make the ball pass over the corner spot. In this case, the ball hits the side cushion about 1.5 inches away from the corner spot. There is no other way to pocket the ball.

If CTE puts the ob into center pocket where the extended point is every time, then there are many shots that cannot be made.

On the other hand, if CTE puts the ob into the center of the pocket opening depending on where the ob is on the table, then CTE sends the ob to different parts of the pocket depending where the ob starts out from.

It's just confusing to me, that's all, and it is also an interesting question for the Poolology method. In that method, I understand that some shots put the ball more in the center of the pocket than others, but there is enough slop in even tighter pockets to allow the balls to fall. My brief experience with Poolology so far makes me inclined to believe this is true.

Hmmm, I get what you're saying. So if I'm following correctly, let's say the on ball was frozen to the rail and you wanted to cut it into the corner. The only way the system would make sense is if it actually took you to ghostball center where if it was like a 3 cushion table, The ghost ball would be resting frozen to both rails in the corner. That absolute zero center would have to be the bottom of the ghostball.

I guess that a good visualization is if you froze balls to the rail all the way around the table, and connected all the points where the balls touch the table, that would be the actual rectangle you're working with.

It would make just about as much sense as if the point was where the cushions meet. It's equally plausible and I have an equal amount of factual evidence to prove it's validity (just pure speculation).

 

[SpiderWebComm]

I'm actually the opposite. Right handed, and I almost always hit to the right of center.

If you almost 'always' hit to the right of center it must mean you haven't been able to identify the cause to correct it. Maybe you don't need to correct it if you're making balls by compensating for it one way or another.

What have you experimented with to not hit right of center? Stance; grip; head position and eye line over cue; wrist position preset and during the stroke; height and posture over the cue?

Some players will tuck or roll their hand and wrist position during the stroke which changes the shaft orientation into the ball and not even know they're doing it. Tuck is when the knuckles turn downward toward the floor and the wrist bows outward. Roll is when the knuckles turn upward toward the ceiling and the wrist bows inward.

Try it and you'll see what I mean about changing the shaft line as you stroke. Buddy Hall used to do it on purpose for different shots as well as English.

If it isn't that, then it's something else and it comes down to a process of elimination.

 

[cookie man]

Well here's my confusion, and I never tried getting an answer because I largely avoid these discussions until Stan's book comes out. However, this particular subject is fresh in my mind because I've been learning about Poolology and trying to understand a little better what happens to the cue ball at the pocket opening. That's why I asked if you understood it for CTE.

My concern is this: If you take an L square (ruler) and match it up to the cushion nose the point of the square will be the extension of the cushion lines to the exact corner you mentioned. This point is about an inch beyond the shelf for my table. If I am shooting a ball into the corner from a 45 degree angle, that means I am shooting straight down the center of the pocket, and over the point we just found. If I now move the ob to the side rail and pocket the ball, it is obvious that I cannot make the ball pass over the corner spot. In this case, the ball hits the side cushion about 1.5 inches away from the corner spot. There is no other way to pocket the ball.

If CTE puts the ob into center pocket where the extended point is every time, then there are many shots that cannot be made.

On the other hand, if CTE puts the ob into the center of the pocket opening depending on where the ob is on the table, then CTE sends the ob to different parts of the pocket depending where the ob starts out from.

It's just confusing to me, that's all, and it is also an interesting question for the Poolology method. In that method, I understand that some shots put the ball more in the center of the pocket than others, but there is enough slop in even tighter pockets to allow the balls to fall. My brief experience with Poolology so far makes me inclined to believe this is true.

Except CTE takes you to a slight overcut which in turn makes the ball center pocket.
CTE puts the ob into the center of the pocket opening depending on where the ob is on the table

 

[duckie]

Except CTE takes you to a slight overcut which in turn makes the ball center pocket.
CTE puts the ob into the center of the pocket opening depending on where the ob is on the table

Impossible.

You can not over cut a ball and hit center pocket.

Hitting center pocket means putting the CB on the one spot on the table that makes the OB go center pocket.

You can can not over cut a ball and hit center pocket, meaning putting the CB on another spot on the table that does not make the OB go center pocket.

 

[BeiberLvr]

Impossible.

You can not over cut a ball and hit center pocket.

Hitting center pocket means putting the CB on the one spot on the table that makes the OB go center pocket.

You can can not over cut a ball and hit center pocket, meaning putting the CB on another spot on the table that does not make the OB go center pocket.

Cut a ball to the right. Aim to the left point and overcut the object ball.

Let me know what happens.

Most people with half a brain won't even need a table.

 

[Dan White]

Hmmm, I get what you're saying. So if I'm following correctly, let's say the on ball was frozen to the rail and you wanted to cut it into the corner. The only way the system would make sense is if it actually took you to ghostball center where if it was like a 3 cushion table, The ghost ball would be resting frozen to both rails in the corner. That absolute zero center would have to be the bottom of the ghostball.

I guess that a good visualization is if you froze balls to the rail all the way around the table, and connected all the points where the balls touch the table, that would be the actual rectangle you're working with.

It would make just about as much sense as if the point was where the cushions meet. It's equally plausible and I have an equal amount of factual evidence to prove it's validity (just pure speculation).

I guess it might work if you defined the corner as 1/2 ball diameter away from the cushion, but this would be the first I've seen of that idea.

I thought CTE made the ball go to the intersection of the two rails. Now it seems it doesn't do that but instead puts the ball in the center of whatever mouth opening is available to the ball. Of course even that doesn't make sense because if a ball is on the rail and it goes in the corner pocket, it is hitting the right or left most edge of the pocket opening (depending on left or right cut). If the ob were sent to the center of the pocket opening on a rail shot, the ob would have to travel away from the rail a little in order to reach the center of the pocket opening, which would be the pocket facing.

I'm just saying if we want to be precise in what we are talking about, I haven't yet seen a logical description of where CTE is supposed to send the ob, other than to the intersection of the two rails, which we all know would result in a lot of missed shots.

I'm sure there are the same questions for Poolology, but at least that system relies on slop in the pocket. It would still be interesting to understand what happens at the pocket opening for Poolology. Probably playing around with the angles on a CAD program would show what happens.

 

[duckie]

One way to think of center pocket is a mid point on the arch of the slate for the pocket.

Since the ball rolls on the slate , why not use the arch in the slate?

 

[mohrt]

The pocket center can be defined as where the gutters meet. This is for any shot on the table. The ball always rebounds off the rails at the gutter, not the rail nose. The visible line on the felt is actually slightly inside the true gutter, as this line is where the ball gets trapped under the rail and compresses into the felt. Freeze a ball on any rail. The center of that ball is the gutter. You will notice it does not sit exactly on the visible wear marks on the felt.

 

[BeiberLvr]

If you almost 'always' hit to the right of center it must mean you haven't been able to identify the cause to correct it. Maybe you don't need to correct it if you're making balls by compensating for it one way or another.

What have you experimented with to not hit right of center? Stance; grip; head position and eye line over cue; wrist position preset and during the stroke; height and posture over the cue?

Some players will tuck or roll their hand and wrist position during the stroke which changes the shaft orientation into the ball and not even know they're doing it. Tuck is when the knuckles turn downward toward the floor and the wrist bows outward. Roll is when the knuckles turn upward toward the ceiling and the wrist bows inward.

Try it and you'll see what I mean about changing the shaft line as you stroke. Buddy Hall used to do it on purpose for different shots as well as English.

If it isn't that, then it's something else and it comes down to a process of elimination.

I use a snooker stance, and actually came across this little gem.

I started using the first approach he talks about and it has helped me out quite a bit already.

https://youtu.be/YGCh1IMIQJw?t=13m36s

 

[bbb]

i use a snooker stance, and actually came across this little gem.

I started using the first approach he talks about and it has helped me out quite a bit already.

https://youtu.be/ygch1imiqjw?t=13m36s

thank you for this link
greenie sent....

 

[duckie]

Over cutting a ball is a reason for a miss, not for making a ball.

Even with spin, there is only one spot on the table to make the ball go center pocket. It is not the same spot when spin is not used.

The spot moves based on spin or no spin, or if the CB is not the same size as the other balls.

This is the biggest problem with CTE users......using terminology in the wrong way....like over cutting a ball to make it, inner most left edge of CB and so on.

If a 1/2 half ball hit is 28 degrees and the shot is setup such that that 28 degree hit puts the OB path over the mid point of the arch in the slate for the pocket opening, how can you hit at say 30 degrees, no spin, nothing on the CB, and the OB still roll over that mid point on the arch?

This over cutting a ball to make it proves that CTE is not anything based on geometry, solely a visualization method, therefore purely subjective.

 

[Dan White]

The pocket center can be defined as where the gutters meet. This is for any shot on the table. The ball always rebounds off the rails at the gutter, not the rail nose. The visible line on the felt is actually slightly inside the true gutter, as this line is where the ball gets trapped under the rail and compresses into the felt. Freeze a ball on any rail. The center of that ball is the gutter. You will notice it does not sit exactly on the visible wear marks on the felt.

I got a tip on this comment that is a good catch.

A regulation 1x2 table is 50 x 100 inches. If you remove 1/2 a ball diameter from all sides, the resulting rectangle is no longer 1x2. You would have to remove twice the length from the long direction in order to preserve the 1x2 playing surface. So your explanation is wrong unless CTE now works on a table that is not 1x2.

What's the real answer, Stan?

 

[SpiderWebComm]

I use a snooker stance, and actually came across this little gem.

I started using the first approach he talks about and it has helped me out quite a bit already.

https://youtu.be/YGCh1IMIQJw?t=13m36s

I don't use a snooker stance and never have but he taught me some new dance steps and moves on the floor to get the attention of women. It won't turn me into John Travolta but better than I am.

In all seriousness, what it does illustrate is an accurate or better stroke emanates from the fundamentals. Stance, head position and eye line, etc. and how to get there. It's a very good video.

If a player is trying to improve by working on the stroke alone while swinging the cue back and forth thousands of times through a Coke bottle with no attention to fundamentals above, that's not how to go about it unless there's a competition for most strokes through a Coke bottle without touching any part of the opening.

Nor does hitting a cue ball thousands of times into the end rail and having it come back to the tip of your cue make a difference in real world playing as far as the stroke goes. That doesn't ingrain or teach Jack Squat. Balls going into the pockets matter.

The eye alignments, stance, feet/body/head/shoulder/elbow/grip/posture determine the accuracy of the stroke. The stroke isn't independent of the fundamentals nor does it lead everything with the fundamentals following. It's the other way around. The stroke is the finished product of how strong the fundamentals are.

The eyes always lead, the body follows with above. Some call it PSR and others call it a different 3 letter acronym.

If anybody disagrees with the eyes leading, put a blindfold on and see where you end up after taking the blindfold off. I think the instructor in the video clearly illustrates it without actually talking about the eyes specifically leading.

 

[SpiderWebComm]

I got a tip on this comment that is a good catch.

A regulation 1x2 table is 50 x 100 inches. If you remove 1/2 a ball diameter from all sides, the resulting rectangle is no longer 1x2. You would have to remove twice the length from the long direction in order to preserve the 1x2 playing surface. So your explanation is wrong unless CTE now works on a table that is not 1x2.

What's the real answer, Stan?

I knew from the very first post you were leading to this down the road and said so.

Another back door attempt at a smack down on CTE and trying to BAIT Stan back into the fray for more of your harassment.

And I got warned for it by Wilson. Thanks for proving me right and where you're coming from. I know for a fact Wilson said, NO BAITING OR THERE WOULD BE CONSEQUENCES!

Lets hear the innocence involved with no intention of harm as you always do.

YOUR QUOTE EARLIER: "As I've said to you before, I don't discuss CTE anymore because you've said all you are going to say until your book comes out."

BAITING AT IT'S FINEST BY DAN WHITE.