To all the scientifically inclined folks...Does the grip hand position matter?

I'm not an especially science-inclined folk, but the answer as I see it is both yes and no:

Yes it matters a lot, because the grip hand position will determine the angle of your forearm at the moment of contact between your tip and the cue ball. (Assuming you use the same length of cue, a normal shot with normal elevation and a consistent bridge length/bridge hand position.) Most every teacher and book will advise that your forearm should be exactly perpendicular at the moment of impact. If you are not achieving this you need to move your grip hand position back or forwards accordingly. (Analyzing your stroke using a video camera is the best way to do this, ideally with the assistance of a professional instructor.) Additionally without understanding the relationship between your grip hand and your stroke length you cannot correctly alter your grip hand position when it is actually required for non-standard strokes (E.G. Shots when your bridge is forced to be very close to the object ball.)

No, it doesn't much matter, because some people (And even some Pros) play just fine without caring if their arm is exactly perpendicular at the moment of impact. These people may also exhibit other dreaded symptoms of non-standard cueing actions like dropping their elbow or even a side-arm stroke.

The answer for you personally depends not on physics but if you are satisfied with the quality of your stroke. If you believe it can stand to be improved and are willing to work on it I'd advise a lesson with some of the fine instructors we have who post here. (Scott Lee or Randy G come to mind.) If you have just won the US Open then don't worry about it.

The wrap is 12" long for a good reason. Gripping near the front of the wrap will decrease power and gripping near the butt will increase power. The shot will help you determine where to place your hand.

spoons said:

Can you explain why that is? If the entire cue is moving in the same direction of the stroke, and directly into the ball (simplified of course), then I'm having a hard time understanding why it matters where the grip hand touches the cue.

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Big C points the way with his post - If you don't believe it matters try experimenting with extremes of grip positions to see what happens. Try holding the cue all the way at the front of the wrap and keeping everything else the same and see what happens to your stroke. Can you shoot hard with your grip hand like that? Conversely if you hold your cue at the very end of the butt can you hit a soft shot accurately? At what position is your forearm when you contact the cue ball? (When you do these experiments MAKE SURE YOU KEEP YOUR BRIDGE HAND AND BRIDGE LENGTH THE SAME!)

As you move your grip hand backwards gradually towards end of the butt at some point (for average people with average cues somewhere near the end of the wrap area of the cue) you will reach your particular perfect combination of cue length, bridge length and physical arm length at which your forearm will be perpendicular when the tip contacts the cue ball. This should be the point where you should get the most consistent stroke and control over the power and speed.

The concept that going even further backwards from this point will get you more power is a controversial one. Some people like to do this on power shots like the break or when attempting to put very heavy follow or draw on a ball. I believe the theory idea is it forces you to follow through further because you start further back. However the science (Back to that) wonks tell us that the cue tip is only in contact with the cue ball for 1/10,000 of a second no matter how much follow through you use, so it should make no difference whatsoever. Also note this will only make any difference if you also lengthen your bridge greatly. (Just as moving your hand forward is only really useful if you shorten your bridge greatly) Otherwise your arm is still moving through the same distance, just starting from further back and will not be perpendicular at contact.

spoons said:

Thanks for the response, Dan. I suppose I should have been more specific in my question, because it's actually the physics that I'm asking about. Assuming that I can produce the exact same stroke no matter where I position my grip hand, will the precise placement of that grip hand change the results that are produced?

Maybe it's better as an example with a robot. Let's assume that we have a robot that could precisely replicate every element of a stroke while also changing its "grip hand" position. Bridge length, arm angle, grip tightness, speed, direction, etc. held constant. Would changing the location of the robot's "grip" on the cue, affect the results we got in any way?

For example, would we be able to get more force into the cue ball out of the same amount of effort? Or better yet, the same amount of force with less effort?

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No science here, just experience but since you haven't gotten many replies:

When applying even a small amount of side spin, by moving your grip hand, you could increase or decrease the amount of swerve. More forward grip, less swerve (the cue tip is angled less.)

More backward grip, more swerve; (the cue tip is angled downward toward the table more when it approaches the cue ball, creating the mini masse curve known as swerve).

Try it for yourself. In my case, when I move my grip hand forward, I subconsciously move my head forward toward the cue ball to get my forearm more perpendicular to the floor. If you don't move your head forward, I think you will be hitting the cue ball at the same impact point, just with less power and a shorter follow through.

Moving your grip hand forward certainly limits the length of your follow through.

Even more importantly, some shots can be made more easily or better shape be obtained with the grip hand in particular positions other than the standard position. (probably because of the reduced power that a more forward grip lends.)

JoeyA

The short answer is no. Consistency is the key to playing better pool though.


If you use a 9" bridge, doesn't matter where your hand is placed on the grip, you are still moving the same object (your cue) 9" forward, doing the same amount of work. Front grip, back grip, makes no difference, since the lever that moves the cue, you arm, isn't adjustable in length, where you grip will still require the same effort to move the cue. The illusion of more/easier power from different grip spots is due to how your muscles contract, where they peak, which can be at different points for everyone based on use, size, weight training, etc. (Although everyone's will be very similar since a bicep is a bicep.)

Of course if you are swinging side to side, the further forward your grip is, the more the cue tip will sway off its target. So fix your stroke!

LoGiC said:

The short answer is no. Consistency is the key to playing better pool though. If you use a 9" bridge, doesn't matter where your hand is placed on the grip, you are still moving the same object (your cue) 9" forward, doing the same amount of work. Front grip, back grip, makes no difference...

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No, I don't think this is right. Your grip arm moves in an arc. Ideally just the forearm moves if you "pin" your upper arm. If you move your upper arm as well you get two sets of interacting arcs, but the principle is still the same - The length of that arc is determined by your grip hand position in conjunction with your bridge hand position and stance.

Try this - Setup for 9-ball break shot in your normal stance, bridge length and normal grip position. Then, without changing anything else move your grip hand all the way to the front of the grip and then try to break at full speed. Does this work? (You may want to have a trained dental practitioner handy to assist with replacing your teeth afterwards.) Of course not, because your arm can now only swing through an arc about 6" long.

If you have always use the same 9" bridge (and assuming you also use an identical stance) then there is only one single single grip position for your arm and stance that will ensure the forearm is perpendicular at the point of contact. At any other grip position your forearm will move a different distance before it makes contact with the cue ball. If your arm moves a different distance then you are doing a different amount of work and accelerating your arm at a different rate. The further forward you grip the cue the shorter this distance will be and vice-versa. The only way to avoid this it to also shorten or lengthen your bridge position when you move your grip hand.

Some players like to use this shorter or longer swing length to control their swing speed and power. Some prefer to use an identical swing length on every single shot and simply change the speed of their arm movement to control power. Most instructors (especially BCA/SPFF ones) teach this, as they believe that by reducing your stroke to one single changeable factor you maximize your consistency.

JoeyA said:

No science here, just experience but since you haven't gotten many replies:

By moving your grip hand, you could increase or decrease the amount of swerve. More forward grip, less swerve (the cue tip is angled less.)
JoeyA

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I assume this will only apply to shots with English? And if so does this only apply to a back-hand English setup or would it also apply to a parallel English setup?

spoons said:

Maybe it's better as an example with a robot. Let's assume that we have a robot that could precisely replicate every element of a stroke while also changing its "grip hand" position. Bridge length, arm angle, grip tightness, speed, direction, etc. held constant.

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Yes, a robot arm could be built to accelerate a cue stick to almost any desired speed. You just adjust the input power to achieve the desired result. The robot could grip the cue stick at any distance it wanted and achieve this. A robot could deliver an 30mph break shot with 0.1" of travel in the cue stick, but no human being could.

But you are not a robot and you can't just tell your self to move your arm at an exactly speed and have it happen repeatedly unless you have a good, consistent stroke and a lot of speed-control practice. Grip position does matter if you want your stroke to be consistent, because it governs the length of the swing of your arm.

If you don't know or care where your grip hand is you don't know or care how long your swing is or at what point of the swing you make contact with the cue ball. It is quite possible to go your whole Pool playing career without having this information, but once you have it you will play better IMHO.

AuntyDan said:

I assume this will only apply to shots with English? And if so does this only apply to a back-hand English setup or would it also apply to a parallel English setup?

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I should have said that this applies when using side spin. Nice catch.

It applies to parallel set up and I am guessing that it applies to back-hand English setup as well. Anytime, your cue is crossing the cue ball in a downward motion, you are most likely going to incur some swerve when applying sidespin.

Thanks.
JoeyA

spoons said:

If we were to test a robot at the same stroke speed, bridge length, etc. Assume that for all grip positions, the robot's arm was perpendicular at contact each time. In essence, if the only variable that changed from test to test was the position of the robot's grip along the butt of the cue...

Is more force transferred to the cue ball when the robot's grip is placed farther back on the cue than when the grip is placed closer to the front?

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given your test case changing grip position changes the impact point .. forward = lower.. backward = higher...

changing grip squeeze.. more = higher ... less = none.. so.. don't squeeze

if you keep a consistent grip and a consistent stroke and you put the tip at the ball every time... you will hit the ball where you want every time..

if you are constantly shifting what you do for every shot every time.. you will never be consistent regardless of where your grip is...

you need repeatable delivery to get repeatable results...

that's just how it is...

In a nutshell, yes it does.
Grip the cue tightly, and you loose flexeblity in the wrist.
Choke up too much and you limit the stroke (try shooting holding cue near joint)
Other things might come into play, such as balance point of the cue.

Force= Mass * Acceleration

Therefore, you can get more force if you hold the cue further back. Since you can accelerate the cue more.

Again, hold the cue at the joint, and with a normal bridge (say 12") it would be harder to accelerate the cue. Less Force output.

AuntyDan said:

I assume this will only apply to shots with English? And if so does this only apply to a back-hand English setup or would it also apply to a parallel English setup?

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You know, I was just thinking about the movement of your grip hand only but there is another factor that I didn't mention. If you move your grip hand forward and don't move your bridge hand, nor move your head forward, closer to the cue ball (in order to get your forearm more perpendicular to the floor, the cue tip will impact the cue ball at the same spot and probably not have any difference in swerve.

When I tried this, I moved only my grip hand forward and I subconsciously moved my head forward as well which allowed me to have a more level swing through the cue ball. This allowed my grip hand forearm to be more perpendicular to the floor.

A little movement goes a long way.

JoeyA

A pictures speaks more than geeky words

One last try using pretty pictures. (BTW I am deeply indebted to Scott Lee for opening my eyes to how this stuff works. I hope he doesn't mind me blabbing about some of his arcane magic here. )

Attached are simplified diagrams showing the cue stick, arm and possible range of motion for a normal, rear and forward grip hand position. These all assume the upper arm does not move and the bridge remains in the same position and elevation.

The red zone represents the maximum distance you can pull back the cue, and the blue zone is the maximum distance you can follow through. The little purple triangle is your bridge hand.

The top diagram shows a theoretical perfect stroke. The forearm is perpendicular at the moment of impact. This can only happen when the grip is at this one single position on the butt, assuming nothing else in the stroke or stance changes. The exact grip hand position that achieves this is unique to each player's body and stance, but for average players I believe it will somewhere at the end of the wrap of a 58" cue. The back stroke and follow through distances are equal, which should give you the best possible speed control.

The second diagram shows what happens if you grip further back. If you don't make any other changes to your stance or bridge the butt gets elevated. The backstroke area is now small, but you can follow through further if you wish. Notice that you are going to impart some draw on the cue ball unless you compensate for this by altering something else. This is a popular grip position for break shots, but if you watch a lot of break shots carefully you will see that most players drop their entire arm and even shoulders at the last moment, which causes the cue to level out. This is why many players think they are shooting break shots with draw when in fact they are hitting them close to center ball. Failure to drop your arm in this position can lead to unintentionally jumping the cue ball off the table.

The third diagram shows what happens if you grip further forward. If you don't change your bridge your cue stick won't even reach the cue ball properly, hitting the cloth in front instead. If you don't compensate for this by moving your bridge hand forward and up you will easily miscue. Typically this grip is only used when you have to shoot over a ball. However because you have a tiny follow-through zone remaining it is very hard to shoot with any power, so some players will deliberately use this grip when they want to shoot a very controlled "Pinch" shot.

Dan, that is OUTSTANDING!!!!!! SPF=randyg