Quantifying Hit and Feel by tone, pitch or harmonics of the cue

I would like to see if anyone knows if this has been done before or if someone is working on it now and the details of what is going on in that effort. If I posted this in the wrong forum also please let me know as I wasn’t sure if this was the place or if the ask a cue maker would have been the spot.

I know you can quantify the accuracy of a cue's hit with controlled repeatable testing measures but has anyone tried creating a range or chart for the feel of a cue’s hit based on its vibration, harmonics or resonant characteristics. I know accuracy is important but when choosing a cue for feel as well, it would be good to be able to say what range the cue falls into, maybe even some type of pitch or key range like musical instruments have. This might also be a good factor to know for shafts to determine the potential to kinetic energy for action on a cue ball although that's not what I'm primarily after as I believe action on the ball is mostly determined by the stroke of the player. Still would be interesting to know for that edge in your playing performance.

Back to the main topic, cues can and have been classified as a type of percussion instrument. It would also be interesting to know what the components/materials individual resonance or vibration or dampening characteristics would do to a cue in a quantifiable way. I know after you hit with a cue you can easily tell after some time whether you like it or not which is very important in your cue choice but it would be nice to have ranges in which we could really classify what we're looking to feel in a similar future cue purchase or custom creation.

We can all try and do currently describe the feel or hit using words like soft, hard, stiff, like a glass rod, has nice feedback or even more general stuff like hits a ton, like a sledgehammer or a fine instrument but what are you really saying. I went down the positive list as I think we all clearly know when a cue hits like it has issues.

If there are cue makers, musicians, physicists, materials testing people, mechanical engineers or other professionals that I did not mention that can take this one on and maybe explain what they think it would take to accomplish this task it would be greatly appreciated. I’m hoping there’s an inexpensive readily available device or method to determine this of course other than your hands and ears, no need to go there people. I think a lot of people seeking custom cues and or even just that special feel would appreciate being able to break it down to something other than that difficult to define term of the perfect feeling cue which of course is subjective. I do think that how a cue feels in general and hits doesn't have to be subjective.

I think it would be great to someday be able to add this as a known and clearly describable factor when ordering or selecting a cue like weight, balance point, ferrule, tip, joint etc...

Thanks in advance for your contributions...

Sorry about the extended post...I got on a roll.

Scott Lee said:

pooln8r...Regardless of what 'techniques' would be used, the "feel/hit" of any cue is still going to be subjective to the user. You can take the same cue, manufactured by any means, have 10 people play with it, and you will get 10 different opinions on the "feel" or "hit". Some will love it; some will hate it; and some will be on the fence. I agree with what 8ballEinstein said...most good players know instinctively what "feels" good to them, without any kind of specialized information...which as mentioned in an earlier post, would be very costly to produce any kind of real scientific evidence...not to mention that to create any kind of real list, you'd have to test literally 1000's of cues, and tens of thousands of different combinations of shaft tapers, construction, joints, tips, etc.

Scott Lee

www.poolknowledge.com

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I also agree with 8ballEinsten that good experienced players instinctively know what feels good to them but what if the maker of the cues they liked is no longer making cues and the cues are now 10,000 a piece, only available through collectors who will only part with their cues to the highest bidder, if at all. So without quantifying what they liked now they are only looking for a name to achieve that feel and even if created by the same guy/gal with the same materials there’s no guarantee it will have the same or even similar feel that they’d been captivated by in their previous experience as people change build techniques. They may however be psychologically predisposed to accept just about anything on the resale market from that maker because of that experience but I do believe if you aren’t seduced by reputation that they may be happily or unhappily surprised with the different level of feel they now possess in that cue when being honest about what they were looking for. They may also be elated about finding something they like even better in another makers cue if they are open to that idea. Now I do believe in trusting in a cue maker’s reputation and judgment in how to put together the various materials that make a great hitting cue as the ones I know do make solid hitting cues that feel lively in your hands but even they struggle when someone is searching to recreate that elusive perfect feel that seems to have a subtle but palpable difference to it. I would think it’s hard to read people’s minds on fuzzy but ingrained memories that they wish to recreate.

This endeavor like Eric stated would also be a great thing to help out beginners who have hit with a few cues and have an idea of what they like but would like to find or build something that fits them better. It’s just another factor and an important one for a lot of us. I read in another post about cues being compared to taste in cars and some only caring about getting from place A to place B and others who cared about what it was like on the way there. I say if you spent enough time stuck in that car you’ll start to care about what it feels like on the way there….If you don’t agree with me move to the tristate area within 30 miles of the city and try to drive into Manhattan on a daily basis during rush hour.

I also believe that this could be a massive but very worthwhile undertaking for the sake of building a cue made of components that have been measured and assembled specifically to accomplish a specific feel. Tokyo-Dave pointed out in this thread that Tony of Black Boar is using the intonation of the cue's shaft and butt to work at accomplishing something similar to what I'm posing here and from what I’ve seen upon completion of cues, tapping the butt with the palm of your hand is a common practice to demonstrate a cue’s resonant quality. At this point feel is created by build technique and definitely an art. I think initially I would love to see a way to represent an existing cue's feel by something like a tone, key or octave or even the amplitude and frequency of vibration transferred to the butt cap end/bumper of the cue from the tip. If I have to pick a place to measure other than the end I would measure to mid-grip on the cue from which I believe the feel would change negligibly within 6 inches or so.

After all balance point is created to spec with weighting and choice of materials, why not do the same including the intention for a specific feel. I know this can be and is being done now in coring a cue, not only are you stabilizing the materials but depending on what you core it with you are adjusting the vibratory feel, just not in a quantifiable way as an objective standard hasn’t been established. For example, instead of straight maple being the core of the sleeved less stable material some cue makers are using purple heart, ebony or other more stable dense woods.

To address that people grip cues in different places, for example like a guitars frets it possibly could change things slightly. I do however think a string’s pitch is changed much easier than a tightly fitted/threaded cue by a nodal point unless of course the cue is being gorilla gripped which ends up prematurely killing the vibration. I'm also not trying to get cue makers to standardize their cues like musical instruments tend to be, I just wanted to be able to give the feel a less vague and subjective description. Eric pointed out maybe a scale of 1 to 10, which I would think would range from practically no transfer of vibration or feel up to damn I can feel that one in my teeth. It would be sort of like the sleep numbers that those airbeds use but for something almost as important. Ok who am I kidding to players it’s more important. Now we just need the data and a way to do the measuring to clearly show people what each level is. Would be good to be able to measure what they are playing with now and how happy they are with the hit. I think it’s amazing how well a lot of pool players adjust to any equipment but there is that extra playing enjoyment and confidence factor to finding a cue that fits you like an extension of your arm. I think if an effective measuring device that doesn’t damage cues in anyway was created one major cue show like the one in PA and we’d have most of what we would need to create a useful chart of classification ranges.

Please keep the ideas and comments coming in…I really appreciate everyone’s help.

By the way, that accelerometer stroke checking device sounds pretty cool and very innovative. I'll bet we could, if it's sensitive enough, use something like that attached to a cue at the grip nodal point right in front of your hand for recording the frequency and amplitude of vibration conveyed into the butt of the cue. Maybe a ring of coordinated specifically calibrated accelerometers to go around a cue could be set to capture cue movement and internal vibration.

It could definitely show stroke flaws and anomalies. Would be very cool to see what pool pro's strokes look like in comparison to each other and to your own as well as what they expect from their chosen equipment. Efren's stroke would be interesting to capture and analyze for sure.

hangemhigh said:

I have been applying tonal characteristics to CA$H cues and believe that it has help develop a better playing cue. I won't say what methods I use, but encourage everyone to delve deeper into this aspect of cue making. There are proven methods used to tune musical instruments and others that will fine tune them. I also apply what I learned to Duck Calls, which I consider musical instruments too.

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Great to hear that your cues are literally "finely tuned instruments" built with feel as a priority. By the way, I'm NOT by any means saying that other cue makers don't make great playing cues with their current methods or consider feel a priority but I think going this route, taking the extra steps to know the tone, resonance including the harmonics of the cue and fine tune it will take perfecting cue feel/performance to a new level. Now if that could be put on a chart in a measurable way then we could select the feel we like from existing or cues to be built and maybe come up with ways to dampen or amplify the feel of existing cues we have but don't like playing with as much we could.

When I have a cue that feels right the way I like it, I play better, I have a better focus on the game as the cue feels like a part of me and I end up making more balls. I also play longer, which means eating and having drinks there. Score for my local pool halls! Kind of works out in the end for all involved in pool