"Center Ball" - Magic or Myth?

CJ Wiley

CJ Wiley

ESPN WORLD OPEN CHAMPION
Gold Member
Silver Member
I just have to "agree to disagree" with those that recommend hitting "center ball". This is much more difficult than most players realize and even with a great stroke you're bound to hit it slightly off 1-5% of the time. This makes the cue ball deflect and leaves you confused on exactly why you miss certain shots.

I deflect every shot slightly,(unless dead staight in) so that I can play the shot to the nearest part of the pocket. This gives me a chance to play the pocket as a "Zone," and thus gives me more margin of error than a "center ball" hitter. All champion players throw balls in by cuing it off center whether their aware of it or not.

Even the greatest bank players throw/hold/stiff (whatever term you choose) their banks so they curve slighly into the hole. This also gives them a pocket "zone" and more margin for error, thus increasing their percentages (and confidence).

I was taught how to bank by Tony Fargo and paid him $700. for his "bank system". Needless to say it paid off many times over (I won over 7k the first week) because he showed me how he aligned and "threw" his banks in an effectively created a bigger "Pocket Zone".

This isn't just true in pool, but in golf, bowling, baseball, tennis, etc. Being able to "move" the ball though spin or deflection is the key that increases a players awareness of the "deeper" level of pocket billiards. 'The Game is the Teacher'
 
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L

lastdimetaker

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I use center ball as a refrence point. I really enjoyed the interview on run out radio. Ur videos are on my shopping list. I laughed so hard when you told the story about svb ten ball break. Practice lmao.. great story
 
chefjeff

chefjeff

If not now...
Silver Member
CJ Wiley said:
I just have to "agree to disagree" with those that recommend hitting "center ball". This is much more difficult than most players realize and even with a great stroke you're bound to hit it slightly off 1-5% of the time. This makes the cue ball deflect and leaves you confused on exactly why you miss certain shots.

I deflect every shot slightly,(unless dead staight in) so that I can play the shot to the nearest part of the pocket. This gives me a chance to play the pocket as a "Zone," and thus gives me more margin of error than a "center ball" hitter. All champion players throw balls in by cuing it off center whether their aware of it or not.

Even the greatest bank players throw/hold/stiff (whatever term you choose) their banks so they curve slighly into the hole. This also gives them a pocket "zone" and more margin for error, thus increasing their percentages (and confidence).

I was taught how to bank by Tony Fargo and paid him $700. for his "bank system". Needless to say it paid off many times over (I won over 7k the first week) because he showed me how he aligned and "threw" his banks in an effectively created a bigger "Pocket Zone".

This isn't just true in pool, but in golf, bowling, baseball, tennis, etc. Being able to "move" the ball though spin or deflection is the key that increases a players awareness of the "deeper" level of pocket billiards. 'The Game is the Teacher'
Click to expand...

I'm not sure exactly what you're saying but nevertheless, I agree with it. I rarely use center only..I usually use side and top/bottom, but I learned this watching Don McCoy play. I figured if he did it, it was a good thing to do.

When I asked him about it, he said he just uses whatever the shot calls for. I thought, Der!...sounds good to me.

Now that I have mastered that (or at least learned to control it), I think I'm a better player overall.

But I still don't get what you're trying to explain here...can you elaborate on this some more, please?

Jeff, the other CJ, Livingston
 
peteypooldude

peteypooldude

I see Edges
Silver Member
lastdimetaker said:
I use center ball as a refrence point. I really enjoyed the interview on run out radio. Ur videos are on my shopping list. I laughed so hard when you told the story about svb ten ball break. Practice lmao.. great story
Click to expand...

Is it still available to watch
 
Patrick Johnson

Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
CJ:
I just have to "agree to disagree" with those that recommend hitting "center ball".

...

All champion players throw balls in by cuing it off center whether their aware of it or not.
Click to expand...
I just have to agree to disagree.

pj
chgo
 
Dunnn51

Dunnn51

Clear the table!
Silver Member
Patrick Johnson said:
I just have to agree to disagree.

pj
chgo
Click to expand...

I agree to "agree to disagree" with CJ,................. and disagree to "agree to disagree" on "agree to disagree" with pj !

ok,............ I think I got that right. :scratchhead:

(I just had to post that ! ) :p

CJ. what you call "zone," I have always thought of as "profile", or the envelope of a shot.

Great post ! & Thank you for your posts here in AZ :thumbup:
 
N

Neil

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
If hitting a hair off center causes so much deflection that you miss...you might want to look at getting a decent shaft to shoot with.
 
CJ Wiley

CJ Wiley

ESPN WORLD OPEN CHAMPION
Gold Member
Silver Member
Many players have been playing for 30 years and still couldn't see it

Dunnn51 said:
I agree to "agree to disagree" with CJ,................. and disagree to "agree to disagree" on "agree to disagree" with pj !

ok,............ I think I got that right. :scratchhead:

(I just had to post that ! ) :p

CJ. what you call "zone," I have always thought of as "profile", or the envelope of a shot.

Great post ! & Thank you for your posts here in AZ :thumbup:
Click to expand...

There's many ways to look at it, and ultimately what works for you is the "right way". I come from a background of a lot of other sports so I look at it like "draw and fade" in golf or "slice and topspin" in tennis.

The spin gives you more of a margin of error, just like the way the pros throw a bowling ball. You will never see a pro bowler throw a staight ball, a pro golfer hit a straight drive or a pro tennis player hit a staight 2nd serve. They know how to generate the margin for error and we can plainly see it. In pool, it's a "minature version" and not easily seen.

Many players have been playing for 30 years and still couldn't see it until it was pointed out.
'The Game is the Teacher'
 
Slasher

Slasher

KE = 0.5 • m • v2
Silver Member
Basically you are saying you can't consistently strike the intended spot on the CB so logic tells me this applies to any spot not just center ball, end result? you are not getting the reaction you expected.
Your suggestion makes no sense.
 
CJ Wiley

CJ Wiley

ESPN WORLD OPEN CHAMPION
Gold Member
Silver Member
Don McCoy was a GREAT player

chefjeff said:
I'm not sure exactly what you're saying but nevertheless, I agree with it. I rarely use center only..I usually use side and top/bottom, but I learned this watching Don McCoy play. I figured if he did it, it was a good thing to do.

When I asked him about it, he said he just uses whatever the shot calls for. I thought, Der!...sounds good to me.

Now that I have mastered that (or at least learned to control it), I think I'm a better player overall.

But I still don't get what you're trying to explain here...can you elaborate on this some more, please?

Jeff, the other CJ, Livingston
Click to expand...

Yes, Jeff, Don McCoy was a GREAT player, I played him in South Dakota when I was 19 (there's a story there, but I don't have time to tell it right now).

You see, the problem with the older players is they will tell you they "think" the shot to overcut or "throw" and that's difficult to understand, let alone teach someone. I do what they do conscously and consistently. This is NOT to say I'm a better player, I just know what happens when someone gets in "dead stroke".

I was one of those "dead stoke players" and could get in a zone and play perfectly for hours when I was very young. Then I started studying the mind and studying what I did when I got into this zone and slowly figured it out. This is a trick business because if you become too aware of what you're doing or let your ego get involved it will leave you.

The way I've dealt with that is to have distinct periods when I teach people and write about it and when I actually do it. They say "those that can do and those that can't teach" - this is true to a point because it's virtually impossible to both at the "world class level" at the same time.

I'm in the mode of writing and teaching, however, to play at my best speed I'll have to commit to just playing for awhile. Before that happens I wanted to get out as much info. as possible and make a few videos, then It will free me up to do what I'd rather do, and that's compete. I'm not sure how that'll work out, if I go to the DERBY I'll have to make the transormation very soon. If I could line up 15 or 20 games I'd do it right now. ;)
 
CJ Wiley

CJ Wiley

ESPN WORLD OPEN CHAMPION
Gold Member
Silver Member
no one can hit it exactly pure every time for hours at a time.

Slasher said:
Basically you are saying you can't consistently strike the intended spot on the CB so logic tells me this applies to any spot not just center ball, end result? you are not getting the reaction you expected.
Your suggestion makes no sense.
Click to expand...

That's not correct at all. I'm saying I give myself a minute margin of error on the cue ball which translates to a bigger margin of error on the actually shot.

Remember, the cue ball is the primary target and no one can hit it exactly pure every time for hours at a time......and that does mean nobody.
 
L

LAMas

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
CJ,
When aiming at the center of the CB, if you mis-hit, you will hit the center as intended or a bit to the right or to the left with unintended results - 3 variables.

If you aim with a touch of inside (TOI), you will/should never hit to the outside. So you take that out of the equation leaving you with the intended TOI or a center CB hit - 2 variables.

Works for me.
Thanks

you posted TOI at length:

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=291380&highlight=wiley
 
peteypooldude

peteypooldude

I see Edges
Silver Member
CJ Wiley said:
That's not correct at all. I'm saying I give myself a minute margin of error on the cue ball which translates to a bigger margin of error on the actually shot.

Remember, the cue ball is the primary target and no one can hit it exactly pure every time for hours at a time......and that does mean nobody.
Click to expand...

That little bit of deflection is great on the break also .
 
Patrick Johnson

Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
Slasher:
Basically you are saying you can't consistently strike the intended spot on the CB so logic tells me this applies to any spot not just center ball, end result? you are not getting the reaction you expected.
Your suggestion makes no sense.
Click to expand...
CJ:
That's not correct at all.
Click to expand...
Actually, Slasher is exactly correct. The "touch of inside" technique doesn't change the margin of error on any shot for the very reason he describes. Others have made the same logical point, but it seems to go right over your head every time.

pj
chgo
 
CJ Wiley

CJ Wiley

ESPN WORLD OPEN CHAMPION
Gold Member
Silver Member
the TOI changes the break slightly and you'll make more balls

peteypooldude said:
That little bit of deflection is great on the break also .
Click to expand...

Yes, if you break from the right and cue the ball to the right you can line up on the right edge of the one ball. If you line up to the center it will deflect and cause a "glancing blow". It's amazing how square you can hit the head ball and the TOI changes the break slightly and you can make more balls once you get the speed down.

There's always some "trial and error" involved with placing the cue ball and of course your speed. The best speed for a 10 Ball break is between 23 and 25 miles per hour. FYI
 
CJ Wiley

CJ Wiley

ESPN WORLD OPEN CHAMPION
Gold Member
Silver Member
explore a new perception in pool that few have experienced.

Patrick Johnson said:
Actually, Slasher is exactly correct. The "touch of inside" technique doesn't change the margin of error on any shot for the very reason he describes. Others have made the same logical point, but it seems to go right over your head every time.

pj
chgo
Click to expand...

There's much more to The Three Part Pocket System than just making the pocket zone bigger. It teaches an accelerating stroke that is extremely accurate and enables you to do things with the cue ball that you COULD NOT do before. It wasn't that you weren't capable of doing it, you just wouldn't know it was an option. Now you can make your stroke a weapon.

That's why you MUST do it for 3 hours straight to allow your perception to change long enough to grasp it. Then, even if you go back to your old style you will play it differently. You will "Real Eyes" that there's another type of shot you can hit and you will recognize the ZONE in the pocket - The Three Part Pocket System I speak of in my Ultimate Pool Secrets.

When I first spoke of the 3 Part Pocket System I advised people to use ouside english and hit it slower just because I didn't want to get into "changing players perceptions", but now I'm sharing the "real deal". This is the system I used to dominate the gambling world for several years. I went 3 straight years and won countless gambling matches and the list of people I played looked like the "who's who" of professional world class players.

They all knew I was doing something addressing the ball that was powerful, but I didn't talk about what it was. Even now, when I share it there's many people that won't try it just out of principle. This is normal and to be expected, I'm only sharing this information to help a few players that REALLY want to explore a new perception in pool that few have experienced. 'The Game is the Teacher'
 
pt109

pt109

WO double hemlock
Silver Member
Those who can hit 'dead ball' can spin the best.
If you can't hit whitey where you intend.....
...compensation will not save you.....
..unless you have a user friendly shaft.
 
Patrick Johnson

Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
CJ:
There's much more to The Three Part Pocket System than just making the pocket zone bigger.
Click to expand...
It doesn't "make the pocket zone bigger", so if it does anything it would have to be "more" than that.

It teaches an accelerating stroke that is extremely accurate and enables you to do things with the cue ball that you COULD NOT do before.
Click to expand...
Such as?

pj
chgo
 
P

plfrg

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Mike Sigel stated that he used a very similar concept so it must not have been top secret. Perhaps just classified...:cool:

He stated it a little differently though which I believe was more technically correct. He said he always tried to use a hair of helping English on cut shots so that if he slightly mis-hit he would either hit it with center or with slight outside English. He aimed accordingly to account for the very small CIT (not CB deflection) so that either case would pocket.

Same concept. Same result. Technically should be a more accurate description. I can't imagine the deflection (or squirt that some use) is significant at all with a hair off center CB hit. Neither is CIT but sometimes a hair is all you need.

Of course if Mike would like to chime in I will defer to his personal explanation but I believe I have it close.
 
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