"Center Ball" - Magic or Myth?

[LAMas]

Mike Sigel stated that he used a very similar concept so it must not have been top secret. Perhaps just classified...

He stated it a little differently though which I believe was more technically correct. He said he always tried to use a hair of helping English on cut shots so that if he slightly mis-hit he would either hit it with center or with slight outside English. He aimed accordingly to account for the very small CIT (not CB deflection) so that either case would pocket.

Same concept. Same result. Technically should be a more accurate description. I can't imagine the deflection (or squirt that some use) is significant at all with a hair off center CB hit. Neither is CIT but sometimes a hair is all you need.

Of course if Mike would like to chime in I will defer to his personal explanation but I believe I have it close.

So Mike uses a touch of outside (TOO) and cj uses TOI...both work.

Mike and cj know what they are doing.:wink:
Thanks

 

[Slasher]

Actually, Slasher is exactly correct. The "touch of inside" technique doesn't change the margin of error on any shot for the very reason he describes. Others have made the same logical point, but it seems to go right over your head every time.

pj
chgo

I would also submit that centre ball offers a better point of reference than any other position.

 

[kanecalgary]

I find pocketing balls a lot easier using English. I use outside or running English instead of inside or check.
For myself, it DOES make the pocket zone bigger and gives me more room for error on the cueball. I aim my shots at the horn and as long as I apply a hair of English, up to almost max English the OB will use the entire pocket! I feel I will only miss if I hit center ball or max English, it gives me a lot of room to play with compared to center ball.
I think a lot of players play center pocket and center cueball, if they aim wrong to either side of the pocket they can miss. If they apply unintentional English it can cause them to miss. IMO
I feel like I have the whole 4.5 inches of the pocket to work with. Playing with center ball and center pocket feels like I'm working with half that.
Thanks for contributing in a positive way to the forum CJ.

 

[Fatboy]

That's not correct at all. I'm saying I give myself a minute margin of error on the cue ball which translates to a bigger margin of error on the actually shot.

Remember, the cue ball is the primary target and no one can hit it exactly pure every time for hours at a time......and that does mean nobody.

i agree, the CB is the target the OB is just there, hit the CB correctly and the OB will have the desired result.

I wasnt asleep the whole time your were talking, I just looked like I was

hope you had a nice holiday season,


best

eric

 

[Fatboy]

I find pocketing balls a lot easier using English. I use outside or running English instead of inside or check.
For myself, it DOES make the pocket zone bigger and gives me more room for error on the cueball. I aim my shots at the horn and as long as I apply a hair of English, up to almost max English the OB will use the entire pocket! I feel I will only miss if I hit center ball or max English, it gives me a lot of room to play with compared to center ball.
I think a lot of players play center pocket and center cueball, if they aim wrong to either side of the pocket they can miss. If they apply unintentional English it can cause them to miss. IMO
I feel like I have the whole 4.5 inches of the pocket to work with. Playing with center ball and center pocket feels like I'm working with half that.
Thanks for contributing in a positive way to the forum CJ.

I bet you play better than 96.354634% of the people here too.

 

[(((Satori)))]

There are a couple of things I can't grasp about TOI. If I post them here maybe you can help me CJ.

I'll start with this.

From my understanding TOI is beneficial based on the fact that it is impossible to consistantly send the object ball exactly where you are aiming even if you were able to hit center cue ball. In my understanding, if it were possible to aim and execute dead center pocket then a little right or a little left off center cue ball would not matter. Aiming and hitting dead center pocket can be off a little to the right or a little to the left though.

From my understanding, the second benefit is supposed to be based on the fact that it is impossible to strike the cue ball exactly where you want to. Slightly planning to use inside English allows you to error and hit dead center or error and hit a little more than a touch of inside.

What I don't understand though is how using TOI makes pocketing a ball scientifically more accurate.

I will describe my think ing by first describing the errors common on regular centerball/center pocket aiming. If you are aiming center pocket you can miss your aim right or left and be ok if you strike the cue ball with centerball or a miss hit on the same side that you miss aim. In other words if you miss hit towards the right side of the pocket and miss hit the cue with right side English, you will throw the object ball back towards center pocket. The one combined error that will result in a miss is an aiming error and misfit error on the opposite side of each other. This will result in an aiming error that sends the object ball towards the right for example and then the left spin will throw the object ball even further right resulting in miss. So there is one combination that will result in a miss as long as you are relatively close. I do assume that you believe you can consistantly get close if you believe you can aim just a touch inside, not even recognizable to the eye, without ever miss hitting with outside.

As I currently see it TOI is no better though because this system also allows for one combined error as long as you are close with both aim and cue. The one error would be this, if you aim towards the extreme inside of the pocket then a center ball hit coupled with an aiming error of slightly more inside will result in a miss also.

Both systems have a realistic possabity of missing if your combined errors are just slightly off. Is this correct?

 

[kanecalgary]

................

 

[mark8950]

Center ball

I disagree with you cj. This is sparky in texas...friend of jeff koontz...your old partner. And dick lane is also my old road buddy. I used the center ball method to teach jeremy jones how to play and i thenk its the old unwritten rule to playing better. Hope u see mt point.........sparky....in wichita falls,tx! Thanks

 

[(((Satori)))]

I think I understand now

There are a couple of things I can't grasp about TOI. If I post them here maybe you can help me CJ.

I'll start with this.

From my understanding TOI is beneficial based on the fact that it is impossible to consistantly send the object ball exactly where you are aiming even if you were able to hit center cue ball. In my understanding, if it were possible to aim and execute dead center pocket then a little right or a little left off center cue ball would not matter. Aiming and hitting dead center pocket can be off a little to the right or a little to the left though.

From my understanding, the second benefit is supposed to be based on the fact that it is impossible to strike the cue ball exactly where you want to. Slightly planning to use inside English allows you to error and hit dead center or error and hit a little more than a touch of inside.

What I don't understand though is how using TOI makes pocketing a ball scientifically more accurate.

I will describe my think ing by first describing the errors common on regular centerball/center pocket aiming. If you are aiming center pocket you can miss your aim right or left and be ok if you strike the cue ball with centerball or a miss hit on the same side that you miss aim. In other words if you miss hit towards the right side of the pocket and miss hit the cue with right side English, you will throw the object ball back towards center pocket. The one combined error that will result in a miss is an aiming error and misfit error on the opposite side of each other. This will result in an aiming error that sends the object ball towards the right for example and then the left spin will throw the object ball even further right resulting in miss. So there is one combination that will result in a miss as long as you are relatively close. I do assume that you believe you can consistantly get close if you believe you can aim just a touch inside, not even recognizable to the eye, without ever miss hitting with outside.

As I currently see it TOI is no better though because this system also allows for one combined error as long as you are close with both aim and cue. The one error would be this, if you aim towards the extreme inside of the pocket then a center ball hit coupled with an aiming error of slightly more inside will result in a miss also.

Both systems have a realistic possabity of missing if your combined errors are just slightly off. Is this correct?

After giving this more thought I think I understand how it allows for a larger margin of error.

Regular aiming has two combined errors which will result in a miss right?

1) Error in aim send the object ball to the right + error in cue to the left throwing the object ball even further right, missing the pocket

2) Error in aim sending the object ball to the left + error in cue to the right throwing the object ball even further left, missing the pocket.


TOI, however has only one combined error as long as you are close.

1) An undercut + a mishit to center will result in missing the pocket.

If you overcut a little and mishit with a little too much inside or center you still make the ball.

 

[Luxury]

I'm a huge fan of CJ's and I'm also a huge fan of pocketing balls with outside english. I'll admit that I was in a chat with a guy that was advocating using inside english on a lot of shots and me and another guy were clowning him. He kept saying that CJ would reveal soon and I thought he was plumb loco.

Wherever you are dude, I apologize. I still like the idea of using outside but until I've seen the video, I have to admit that guy was not a troll like I had thought.

 

[CJ Wiley]

"target zone" used to maximize margin of error

Mike Sigel stated that he used a very similar concept so it must not have been top secret. Perhaps just classified...

He stated it a little differently though which I believe was more technically correct. He said he always tried to use a hair of helping English on cut shots so that if he slightly mis-hit he would either hit it with center or with slight outside English. He aimed accordingly to account for the very small CIT (not CB deflection) so that either case would pocket.

Same concept. Same result. Technically should be a more accurate description. I can't imagine the deflection (or squirt that some use) is significant at all with a hair off center CB hit. Neither is CIT but sometimes a hair is all you need.

Of course if Mike would like to chime in I will defer to his personal explanation but I believe I have it close.

A "hair" of deflection will alter the path up to a half ball on a full table shot depending on the speed you hit it. On full table shots I reduce the amount of TOI I use in half and on some conditions even more that that.

Yes, Mike certainly knows this as well, but he does it with outside, not inside. This is similar to a golfer that "fades" the ball compared to a golfer that "draws" the ball (if you play golf this concept is basic). In golf a "draw" has spin that makes it fly right to left, it will fly lower and also farther....it also rolls further. The "fade" will fly left to right, it flies higher and lands softer....the wind also influences it more.

NO Golfer tries to hit a straight ball every time, especially with longer shots, it's not only more difficult, it also requires you aim at the target and that takes away the "target zone" used to maximize margin of error.

This may sound complicated if you don't play golf and it is.....just like my TOI system may sound complicated, and it is if you don't have experience in maximizing margin of error. Pool is like a miniature version of golf in some ways, especially when talking about angles, zones, and spins used to maximize margin of error.

Sigel would be like a golfer that fades the ball and I'm like a golfer that draws the ball. His works really well on new cloth and tournament conditions, mine works better on worn cloth and "pool room" conditions. These are the subtle differences and both are effective.

My position is if you learn the Touch of Inside you will learn a vast array of shots that you've never experienced before and the "pocket zone" becomes very evident if you commit to using it for a few hours. Most players already spin the ball with outside, but now in the same way Sigel does it. He's using a quick, piercing spin and constantly guarding against "skidding" the ball.

He's rarely going to cue over more than a tip and usually just a "touch of outside" which makes his approach and mine similar in nature. Watch the video below and you'll see a slight difference in how we cue the ball, however, for the most part we are rarely cuing the ball more than a "touch" over from center, but always using the spin/deflection to give us the bigger "pocket zone". MIKE SIGEL vs CJ Wiley

 

[CJ Wiley]

There's 3 basic "themes" of how the greatest players play

i agree, the CB is the target the OB is just there, hit the CB correctly and the OB will have the desired result.

I wasnt asleep the whole time your were talking, I just looked like I was

hope you had a nice holiday season,


best

eric

Hey there Eric, I know you just pretend to sleep with "one eye open" :wink:

You heard Johnny and I talk about this quite a bit in London one night. He has incorporated the TOI on his longer shots, especially off the rail. It told him that was always the advantage I had on him and he agreed. He does SO many things great that incorporating the TOI has made him even stronger (in his "prime years").

There's 3 basic "themes" of how the greatest players play and I've never represented that the TOI is anything but one of those 3. I do believe all the greatest players throw the object ball more than you (or maybe even they) realize.

Someone has to be able to completely control/judge spin and deflection to be a champion and once you learn it you "Real Eyes" that it's quite an advantage to utilize it in executing many shots.

 

[Luxury]

My mind is blown. I would have thought a good handicap would be that a guy HAD to use inside English when shooting off the rail. Would love to hear what John Schmidt thinks of this.

 

[CJ Wiley]

The confidence you develop doing this technique is amazing.

I find pocketing balls a lot easier using English. I use outside or running English instead of inside or check.
For myself, it DOES make the pocket zone bigger and gives me more room for error on the cueball. I aim my shots at the horn and as long as I apply a hair of English, up to almost max English the OB will use the entire pocket! I feel I will only miss if I hit center ball or max English, it gives me a lot of room to play with compared to center ball.
I think a lot of players play center pocket and center cueball, if they aim wrong to either side of the pocket they can miss. If they apply unintentional English it can cause them to miss. IMO
I feel like I have the whole 4.5 inches of the pocket to work with. Playing with center ball and center pocket feels like I'm working with half that.
Thanks for contributing in a positive way to the forum CJ.

You are correct, from a perception standpoint, you will have close to a 50% bigger pocket when you learn the concept of the "3 Part Pocket System". When done correctly you are using the whole pocket, as opposed to the "center ball" guys that struggle on tight equipment.

Hitting the center of the pocket is the target for "center ball" players which is difficult. With a player that throws the ball with the "Touch" they are aiming at the closest part of the pocket and forcing it into the center. The confidence you develop doing this technique is amazing. 'THe Game is the Teacher'

 

[(((Satori)))]

My next question was going to be:

Would I be able to apply this concept with a touch of outside instead because I tend to throw more than deflect? I'm glad Mike's theory was brought up and discussed.

 

[CJ Wiley]

Try this experiment

My mind is blown. I would have thought a good handicap would be that a guy HAD to use inside English when shooting off the rail. Would love to hear what John Schmidt thinks of this.

It's the opposite of what you're thinking, but many players would agree with you. Fortunately I'm not trying to get everyone to agree, I'm just telling what works and what's effective, especially under pressure (when it really counts).

Try this experiment: Set up a long shot off the rail and make it a slight cut...almost straight in, but where you have to cut it slightly to the right. Now, aim the shot EXACTLY like you're shooting it straight in BUT cue it SLIGHTLY to the right....just a hair or you'll over-cut it. Now hit it with confidence and see what happens.

If you over cut it, set it up again and use even LESS inside. DO NOT TRY TO SPIN IT, just use the Touch of Inside to deflect the ball slightly and make sure to accelerate. Hit the cue ball "crisply" and you will see how accurate you will get after practicing this for 5-10 minutes. You will never want to shoot it your "old way" again. :wink:

 

[Luxury]

I'm on it, CJ. Your match against Mizerack rocked my world. You are a champion and you could spot me the six and I can beat the nine ball ghost.

 

[(((Satori)))]

C.J., please respond to my 2 posts on page 2. I want to check if I understand the concept correctly.

Thank you for taking the time to help everyone.

 

[Luxury]

Unfu**ing believable. I think I like it.

 

[CJ Wiley]

To be fair, go to this link and read through it

C.J., please respond to my 2 posts on page 2. I want to check if I understand the concept correctly.

Thank you for taking the time to help everyone.

I could explain this time and time again, however, it's something that can't be "understood", it must be experienced. This is not a "cop out" it's just the truth. If this could be explained everyone would be running out every time by sunup. :wink:

To be fair, go to this link and read through it. I think there's a way to bring up all my posts, but I've never tried to do that. You'll see that I made several hundred posts on these topics you're asking about and only about 20 people (publically) said they "got it," and they had to practice for 3 straight hours ONLY using the Touch of Inside.

....HERE"S THE LINK, there's some "Home work" http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=283974&page=57 There's many posts going back before and after this one, but it puts you somewhere in the middle.