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So I tried the "See-system" and it was interesting but...
- Thread starter Straightpool_99
- Start date
I have purchased both (SEE and CTE/Pro One). Worked some with SEE. Lots of good material but I happen to believe CTE/Pro One is substantially superior. Just MHO.
I don't believe the shadow and 1/4 ball have a relationship. There are many occasions where the shadow and 1/4 ball are the same or close but not always. Therefore, using 1/4 ball hit to try and work the SEE system wouldn't work very well from my understanding.
I don't believe the shadow and 1/4 ball have a relationship. There are many occasions where the shadow and 1/4 ball are the same or close but not always. Therefore, using 1/4 ball hit to try and work the SEE system wouldn't work very well from my understanding.
I have played on tables all over the world and never had problems to perceive the shadow(s). The form of the shadow(s) may vary though- but this is not important as only the intersection of the darkest shadow under the ball and the ball has to be perceived- that means it does not matter if the shadow is round or has a form of a elipse or even different.
The shadow divides the cue ball in quarters only, when you have your your vision center down- just like when you are shooting at a ball!
Go down with your head until your eyes are as much down as possible and you are still feeling comfortable. (pretty much your set position)
When I'm talking about the shadow I'm talking about the intersection of the most darkest shadow under the cue ball and the cue ball.
When looking at the intersection of shadow and ball from more up above will not divide the cue ball in quarters!
This short video is a variation of the SEE-SYSTEM but works really good!
In the original SEE-SYSTEM we look at the intersection of shadow and cue ball from standing up high behind the cue ball and from a different distance. This leads to
a different perception- the shadow cuts the cue ball now at at 22.5° and 52° and not at 15°/45° anymore and we do normally not pivot manually but step into the balls from 1 diamond more away.
The next thing that you discovered is absolutely right. This particular video of 10 minutes only shows how to deal with balls within a certain range of distance in category 2 and 3 I only showed how to align for balls that are 1.5 to 3.5 diamonds apart from each other!
Speed and the used kind of stroke is an important factor as well!
The lines for closer balls and for long shots are different! This is founded in general physics.
1) We perceive balls at a longer distance smaller than balls that are close. Plus the ball is not a small point but has a diameter (ball = 5.72 cm) and therefore the angles between close balls is steeper than between balls that are 4 diamonds apart from each other.
2) On very close distances (1 diamond and less) the cue ball does not roll but it slides and therefore has the same effect like a stun shot (we have to aim/align) thinner
to make the ball or use "gearing English)! Using this variation for close balls in category 1 (thicker shots) without side spin you will have to align half a tip thinner (view of shadow/ball with your vision center down/low) (this alignment is an 1/8th of a ball thinner (22.5°)
In category 2 (thinner shots) the alignment shown in the short video is true for distances between 1.5 and 3.5 diamonds and a rather firm speed (as shown in the video). In case the balls are further apart using a rather firm speed you have to align a little thicker (again- an adjustment of aligning half a tip thicker will get the job done) and for rather slow shots align half a tip thinner at the cue ball.
Using slow speed with the tip making contact a little above/below center enhances the throw effect on angles that are steeper than a 3/4 ball! Therefore we have to align a little thinner or compensate by using side spin (outside english on standard distances using a nice follow through or just a tiny tiny touch of inside english.
These adjustments have always to be made as it is general physics! If you want to get better at pool you have to know this or get the feel for it which requires a long time without knowing about it! The adjustments (aligning/aiming thinner on slower/closer shots or the needed adjustments on balls with a long distance by aligning a littler thicker when using the same speed or using gearing English is NOT AT ALL DUE TO USING THE SEE_SYSTEM BUT ALWAYS NECESSARY! Distance is an important factor!
In proOne for example you can as well compensate by using an inside sweep to thinn the ball a little / sometime we need to take the next thinner category.
When using TOI for example, a shot where the cue ball and object ball are close together (like distance of 1 diamond) we have to align center to edge for a sho tbefore getting in our slightly inside set position for a shot that normally would call for a center to center alignment - or a edge to edge alignment ( (crosswise) for a shot will be necessary that would normally just call for a center to edge alignment before going down....
STUN:
Using a stun shot for angles steeper than 15° (here only a very slight adjustment is necessary) and steeper than a 2/3rd ball (20° and steeper angles like a 49° cut shot (1/4 ball) call for a rather big adjustment)They call for a lot thinner alignment/or even more gearing English !l!
Using stun in category 1 and an angle steeper than 20° call for a 1/8th of a ball thinner alignment.
Using stun action on steeper angles in category 2 call for an alignment that we normally use for category 3!
In the See system training program I deal with all distances / different kind of strokes / at all speeds for shots without side spin and shots with side spin!
Hope that clears up things a bit!
Ekkes
The shadow divides the cue ball in quarters only, when you have your your vision center down- just like when you are shooting at a ball!
Go down with your head until your eyes are as much down as possible and you are still feeling comfortable. (pretty much your set position)
When I'm talking about the shadow I'm talking about the intersection of the most darkest shadow under the cue ball and the cue ball.
When looking at the intersection of shadow and ball from more up above will not divide the cue ball in quarters!
This short video is a variation of the SEE-SYSTEM but works really good!
In the original SEE-SYSTEM we look at the intersection of shadow and cue ball from standing up high behind the cue ball and from a different distance. This leads to
a different perception- the shadow cuts the cue ball now at at 22.5° and 52° and not at 15°/45° anymore and we do normally not pivot manually but step into the balls from 1 diamond more away.
The next thing that you discovered is absolutely right. This particular video of 10 minutes only shows how to deal with balls within a certain range of distance in category 2 and 3 I only showed how to align for balls that are 1.5 to 3.5 diamonds apart from each other!
Speed and the used kind of stroke is an important factor as well!
The lines for closer balls and for long shots are different! This is founded in general physics.
1) We perceive balls at a longer distance smaller than balls that are close. Plus the ball is not a small point but has a diameter (ball = 5.72 cm) and therefore the angles between close balls is steeper than between balls that are 4 diamonds apart from each other.
2) On very close distances (1 diamond and less) the cue ball does not roll but it slides and therefore has the same effect like a stun shot (we have to aim/align) thinner
to make the ball or use "gearing English)! Using this variation for close balls in category 1 (thicker shots) without side spin you will have to align half a tip thinner (view of shadow/ball with your vision center down/low) (this alignment is an 1/8th of a ball thinner (22.5°)
In category 2 (thinner shots) the alignment shown in the short video is true for distances between 1.5 and 3.5 diamonds and a rather firm speed (as shown in the video). In case the balls are further apart using a rather firm speed you have to align a little thicker (again- an adjustment of aligning half a tip thicker will get the job done) and for rather slow shots align half a tip thinner at the cue ball.
Using slow speed with the tip making contact a little above/below center enhances the throw effect on angles that are steeper than a 3/4 ball! Therefore we have to align a little thinner or compensate by using side spin (outside english on standard distances using a nice follow through or just a tiny tiny touch of inside english.
These adjustments have always to be made as it is general physics! If you want to get better at pool you have to know this or get the feel for it which requires a long time without knowing about it! The adjustments (aligning/aiming thinner on slower/closer shots or the needed adjustments on balls with a long distance by aligning a littler thicker when using the same speed or using gearing English is NOT AT ALL DUE TO USING THE SEE_SYSTEM BUT ALWAYS NECESSARY! Distance is an important factor!
In proOne for example you can as well compensate by using an inside sweep to thinn the ball a little / sometime we need to take the next thinner category.
When using TOI for example, a shot where the cue ball and object ball are close together (like distance of 1 diamond) we have to align center to edge for a sho tbefore getting in our slightly inside set position for a shot that normally would call for a center to center alignment - or a edge to edge alignment ( (crosswise) for a shot will be necessary that would normally just call for a center to edge alignment before going down....
STUN:
Using a stun shot for angles steeper than 15° (here only a very slight adjustment is necessary) and steeper than a 2/3rd ball (20° and steeper angles like a 49° cut shot (1/4 ball) call for a rather big adjustment)They call for a lot thinner alignment/or even more gearing English !l!
Using stun in category 1 and an angle steeper than 20° call for a 1/8th of a ball thinner alignment.
Using stun action on steeper angles in category 2 call for an alignment that we normally use for category 3!
In the See system training program I deal with all distances / different kind of strokes / at all speeds for shots without side spin and shots with side spin!
Hope that clears up things a bit!
Ekkes
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Ekkes,
Just for clarification:
You indicated in one paragraph that for Pro1 you can compensate a little with an inside sweep. The inside sweep is not used for a compensation in any situation.
StanShuffett
I keep hearing about gaps in both systems, but I have yet to see oneEither Pro One or SEE is well worth the money. My only recommendation for you is to hold off unless you already have a consistent stroke.
Probably because you dont know the difference between being close or on the money looks like.
Anthony
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Well i know the difference. Also haven't seen any gaps pointed out. Gaps are hearsay and the only argument left.Probably because you dont know the difference between being close or on the money looks like.
Anthony
The table says there's gaps you guys say there isnt..Table wins.
Anthony
Maybe the table wins playing you, but i never lost to a table.
The table says there's gaps you guys say there isnt..Table wins.
Anthony
Prove it please.
The gap for me was between my ears watching the CTE dvd... I couldn't lay down my preconceptions and get my mind around CTE regardless of the number of times I tried... Well to be honest there were only 3 viewings....
With the SEE system using the manual pivots it was intuitive and worked... I cherry picked a few shots from the system and immediately added them to my toolbox.....
Do I think SEE is better than CTE... Maybe, Maybe Not... But for me the material was definitely easier for me to digest.....
As far as CTE I will at some point get a lesson from Stan at which point I might be able to comment on the systems equally and not just on the basis of the training materials available....
I even intend on buying the next CTE dvd to try again... so here is to crossing fingers.....
Chris
With the SEE system using the manual pivots it was intuitive and worked... I cherry picked a few shots from the system and immediately added them to my toolbox.....
Do I think SEE is better than CTE... Maybe, Maybe Not... But for me the material was definitely easier for me to digest.....
As far as CTE I will at some point get a lesson from Stan at which point I might be able to comment on the systems equally and not just on the basis of the training materials available....
I even intend on buying the next CTE dvd to try again... so here is to crossing fingers.....
Chris
I honestly only watched the Pro One DVD once, and understood the gist of it. What really helped me out was putting time in at the table. No system is a magic bullet and will not make you a pro. You still need to practice and the more you do, the better you'll get.
Have heard that from several people who seemed to get it but it gave me a headache instead of a lightbulb going off... It was contradictory to what my brain already had in it... Like I said I think the gap was between my ears.....
I've been a certified consultant and trainer for 15 years now and I know first hand sometimes different people need a different delivery to grasp new materials... That's why I still want a lesson with Stan and am willing to shell out cash for DVD number 2 to see if the new presentation resonates with me.....
Not knocking Stan or the CTE/Pro1 system just saying that it was easier for ME to learn SEE... I'd try them both if I was someone looking at systems and see which one works best regardless of The Renfro's experience but if you try SEE and it doesn't click order CTE... if you try CTE and it doesn't click buy SEE... There are enough players vouching for them both to have doubts to the validity of either......
Chris
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The table says there's gaps you guys say there isnt..Table wins.
Anthony
A talking table. Yeah right.
Chris, it is a totally different way of aiming. You first have to "empty your cup". You have to set aside what you already know about aiming because none of it applies. If you try comparing CTE to what you already know, you will never make any sense of it.
What I initially had to do was forget about even making any balls. Just follow the steps and see what happened with it. Once I did that, then it all started to fall in place and the lightbulb came on. Good luck with it! Once you "get it", you will wonder why no one else ever came up with this a long time ago!
I completely believe that is accurate Neil... The issue is I still haven't finished the man cave so to digest it and take it to the pool room wasn't happening LOL...
I hope to have the cave done this summer and may try it again when I can run the DVD and then try what was demonstrated... I just couldn't process it to file it for later use.... It really did make my head hurt to try =) I may be the only one :yes:
The table has a lot to offer, some just dont see it or maybe havnt realized it.
Im sure for many of you who keep at you will either give up because some shots arnt going and some are.(blame yourself)or you will keep at it and do to repetition start making the rite adjustments.
I imagine some of you just started doing things a little different just to get some shots to go.
Anthony
There's countless videos on youtube now of people shooting with Pro One.
Please provide at least one example of someone making in adjustment (other than BHE) in their aim.