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How Much Is A Tip of English?
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How Much Is A Tip of English? - 06-27-2015, 10:20 PM

How much is a "tip" of English? To ask another way: how many tips of English can be applied without miscuing?

I like to think it's 3 tips maximum. That means 1 tip = 1/3 of maximum, which is what you get when you move the shaft's edge to center ball (a common "1st step" for English).

The pics below show the full range of English divided into thirds (white bullseyes) and a 13mm shaft contacting the CB at each of the thirds. Notice that for maximum English the tip's contact patch (about 3mm) extends slightly beyond the tip's edge (this assumes a nickel curvature).

pj
chgo

Attachment 27569
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Last edited by Patrick Johnson; 09-25-2015 at 05:33 PM.
  
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06-27-2015, 10:44 PM

Thats the measurement of "tips of english" that Ive always used. Its interesting to see that your opinion has changed on the subject. Why the change?

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=134289


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06-27-2015, 10:58 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chuck Fields View Post
Thats the measurement of "tips of english" that Ive always used. Its interesting to see that your opinion has changed on the subject. Why the change?

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=134289
Not entirely different - I divided the maximum range of English into thirds then too, but numbered them as 1/2 "tip" each because that's more like how far the shaft actually moves. But most players seem to think there are more than 1 1/2 "tips" of English possible, so I adjusted the numbering to a more popular scale.

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06-27-2015, 11:13 PM

When I hear the phrase "1 tip of right," I interpret that as 1 tip's width further right than a center ball alignment. The phrase is, by definition, inexact, due to varying tip sizes. For example, my old Z2 shaft, which started out as 11.75 mm is now 11.4 mm.

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding...
  
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06-27-2015, 11:14 PM

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06-27-2015, 11:28 PM

Given the various diameters of tips in use, I think the convention should be changed to percent of maximum. "Hit it with about 25% right english." Steve
  
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06-28-2015, 07:31 AM

Why are those not considered half tip increments? In golf, if a person says, "play this putt 2 balls out to the right", it mean that you play it two full ball diameters to the right of the cup. This diagram seems to use the radius instead.

Not disagreeing, just wanting to understand.
  
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06-28-2015, 08:03 AM

PJ, If you start with 2 tips of left, alignment wise, and pivot or swipe to 1 tip of right to shoot is the amount of english generated the same or more than just aligning with one tip of right? Has there been tests on this?
  
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06-28-2015, 08:17 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by cookie man View Post
PJ, If you start with 2 tips of left, alignment wise, and pivot or swipe to 1 tip of right to shoot is the amount of english generated the same or more than just aligning with one tip of right? Has there been tests on this?
It seems to me that it would be more english that way. Because of the angle of the approach of your cue (your cue isn't hitting the ball "head on"/straight forward but is instead hitting slightly from the side) you are hitting closer to the edge of the ball than if you were to "parallel shift" over that same one tip of right english and hit "head on"/straight forward.

Or to put it another way, if you hit the same spot on the cue ball from two different directions/angles, one of them is going to be closer to the edge of the cue ball (when looking at it down the line of the cue/direction the cue is traveling) and will therefore impart more spin.

Last edited by Poolplaya9; 06-28-2015 at 08:30 AM.
  
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06-28-2015, 08:29 AM

Like PJ, I play with a tip smaller than 13mm....mine is 12mm...
...so I take 'tips of english' with a grain of salt.

Using a stripe ball as the cue ball, I think of the edge of the stripe as the 'mis-cue zone'.


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06-28-2015, 08:32 AM

Nice diagram PJ,
I tend to prefer the 1.5 tips max, or better yet, the a touch, 30%, 60%, 90% to indicate a little, 1/2 tip, 1 tip, 1.5 tips or thereabouts.

A fair bit of variation these days with people using tips from 11 to 13.5mm. I guess in the end, the popular terminology will win out, and a disclaimer could be added when we need to be precise.

Colin


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06-28-2015, 08:35 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Johnson View Post
How much is a "tip" of English? To ask another way: how many tips of English can be applied without miscuing?

I like to think it's 3 tips maximum. That means 1 tip = 1/3 of maximum, which is what you get when you move the shaft's edge to center ball (a common "1st step" for English).

The pics below show the full range of English divided into thirds (white bullseyes) and a 13mm shaft contacting the CB at each of the thirds. Notice that for maximum English the tip's contact patch (about 3mm) extends slightly beyond the tip's edge (this assumes a nickel curvature).

pj
chgo

Attachment 68968
I like the 3mm mark idea to describe tips of English. Five distinct marks can be had before the miscue limit. So there's 5 max tips from center to play. This is unchanged no matter what diameter of shaft you play with so its much more universally applied. For 2.25" balls at least.
  
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06-28-2015, 08:45 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Johnson View Post
How much is a "tip" of English? To ask another way: how many tips of English can be applied without miscuing?

I like to think it's 3 tips maximum. That means 1 tip = 1/3 of maximum, which is what you get when you move the shaft's edge to center ball (a common "1st step" for English).

The pics below show the full range of English divided into thirds (white bullseyes) and a 13mm shaft contacting the CB at each of the thirds. Notice that for maximum English the tip's contact patch (about 3mm) extends slightly beyond the tip's edge (this assumes a nickel curvature).

pj
chgo

Attachment 68968

I refer to your first English position as a half tip, 2nd position as a tip, each step simply measured to the edge of the tip.


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06-28-2015, 08:48 AM

A tip of English, to me is half the width of my ferrell. That seems to be what Patrick is saying.
When using BHE the same measurement imparts a little more English.

I've used a scribe down my ferrell for years for banking as I don't have a natural
feel for it.

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06-28-2015, 09:13 AM

Some approximate measurements I drew up just for fun.

For anyone interested, I estimate the actual parallel movement of the cue, from center to max tip offset at 50% CB radius of 28.575mm is:
10mm tip = 1.8 tips
11mm tip = 1.7 tips
12mm tip = 1.6 tips
13mm tip = 1.5 tips
14mm tip = 1.4 tips
Attached Images
 


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Last edited by Colin Colenso; 06-28-2015 at 09:25 AM.
  
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