14.1 Strategy

[Blackjack]

See here is where the rubber meets the road...We have 2 bonafide pros and another NYC player telling you the only way to win is to run balls..Well at the A level or higher that is Absolutely correct


But where the game of pool is played in the trenches in most rooms across the country the Level of play is not fantastic....So better defense and overall smarter play is what is going to seperate 1 player from another..

I say to get better master the Defense as well as pocket balls and play the smart paterns....The overall game is complex it is a chess match...

8 to 6 is a winning rack not your goal.....This board is generally weak on real pool.....Somreone finally posts a good question and you get drummed out of here by the experts...Someone even had the balls to call me Fast Larry..

Whatever....

Who ever the origanal poster was try to Defense it will improve your game...

Noone is disputing that, however - IN POOL - defense is utilized in response to defense or it is utilized after you made an error in judgment, therefore bringing your offense to a halt.

Pool as well as learning depend upon your attitude. If you have an open mind, you will learn. If you close off your mind and believe that you cannot learn from others you are in for a long life. The choice is yours. Steve Lipsky and I play the game of 14.1 continuous very differently yet we learn from each other every time the subject comes up. Its about respecting the views and knowledge of others and being willing to learn something new every day. You will notice that the better players never stop learning. Its a great habit to mimic.

 

[PoolSharkAllen]

Please share any tips, strategy or advice that might help us aspiring straight pool players. Thanks![/QUOTE]

Sometimes, we can learn a lot by watching the masters play. I'd like to recommend the following two very instructive Accu-stats tapes:
1. Oliver Ortmann vs. Jim Rempe
2. Efren Reyes vs. Jim Rempe

Both Ortmann and Reyes ran 100+ balls in their games.

One advantage of watching video tapes is that you can play the tapes over and over and learn something new every time.

 

[Nick B]

I'm not meaning to nit pick your post, but I want to expand bit on this point.

Thinning balls is defiantly a skill to learn, but I see it way overused. IMHO, thinning a ball in the pack for a safety is a last resort. Typically, all you accomplish with this move is to leave your opponent without an offensive shot. This is only half the goal of a safety. A complete safety leaves your opponent no offensive shots and very limited defensive shots. It is much better to play safeties into the pack, sticking the cue on the side and popping out balls on the other side. This puts your opponent in a much tougher position and increases the likely hood he will leave you a shot after his turn.

Babe Cranfield addresses this in The Straight Pool Bible.

Absolutely! Thinning balls is way to passive and puts no heat on your opponent. So you thin a ball and and leave me slammed against stack. Big Deal. If there are no floaters to make me pay then I just thin back and leave distance.

No what defendomatrons? It's still a gun fight and you still need to spill some blood to win. I'm to old to think that defense and finesse don't win games...but it's generally more like a bump to a spike.

Nick

 

[pdcue]

See here is where the rubber meets the road...We have 2 bonafide pros and another NYC player telling you the only way to win is to run balls..Well at the A level or higher that is Absolutely correct


But where the game of pool is played in the trenches in most rooms across the country the Level of play is not fantastic....So better defense and overall smarter play is what is going to seperate 1 player from another..

I say to get better master the Defense as well as pocket balls and play the smart paterns....The overall game is complex it is a chess match...

8 to 6 is a winning rack not your goal.....This board is generally weak on real pool.....Somreone finally posts a good question and you get drummed out of here by the experts...Someone even had the balls to call me Fast Larry..

Whatever....

Who ever the origanal poster was try to Defense it will improve your game...

That would be me, and typically you missed that I called you
Fast Larry's cousin
because,
even now you still can't let go that the OP did NOT ask how to win
games - he asked how to RUN BALLS

once more with feeling
anyone who can play at all knows defense is important - it can
sometimes even win you a game

Let's by all means, have a thread about defense as an integral
part of a winning strategy

This thread is about how to run balls
what are your thoughts on the advice given on running balls?

Dale<who thinks reading is even more inportant than defense>

 

[Vinman]

Please share any tips, strategy or advice that might help us aspiring straight pool players. Thanks!

Sometimes, we can learn a lot by watching the masters play. I'd like to recommend the following two very instructive Accu-stats tapes:
1. Oliver Ortmann vs. Jim Rempe
2. Efren Reyes vs. Jim Rempe

Both Ortmann and Reyes ran 100+ balls in their games.

One advantage of watching video tapes is that you can play the tapes over and over and learn something new every time.[/QUOTE]


I have both tapes and you are right, they are great matches and a lot can be learned. Efren’s pattern play, as pointed out by the commentators, differs somewhat from the traditional but it opened my eyes to other possibilities.

 

[Hierovision]

Nobody ever said defense was a bad thing. What they're discrediting is your advice of keeping 8 balls a rack in your mind while clearing the table. I believe keeping any amount in your mind (other than the out amount) would interfere with the planning for clearing the entire rack... since the game is about racking up the most points. If you mess up somehow play a great defensive shot... everyone can agree there.

I think I'm going to listen to the instructors on this one. I can't run more than 2 racks yet but I know I won't get better by screwing around after making 8 balls after the first rack. That just means I'll be sitting down while the other person runs a few... then when I get back to the table it's 8-48 while I'm left with NO shot because my opponent understands when to play defense.

I know you're not saying to screw around after making 8, but that shouldn't be anyone's goal no matter how novice. The goal should be 100 or 150 or 50 or whatever the amount is to win. TO WIN.

And you can easily, without effort, avoid insulting people while still making a point.

 

[The Kiss]

You proved my point......Hey I am only as insulting as the Next guy...

The point is for a beginner which I am inclined to think the original poster is...Defense and smart play leads to better runs period....Force the other guy into tough spots, and open the rack for run to string runs...

Then we get the typical mentality that you have to run big runs to win and get better which is true....But you can also run 14 play safe, run 14 safe, make 10 safe until and so on until you get the win...

Sure it is not as pretty, but if you know your limitations and play smart you can get the W...

Its a different stategy thats all.....No one seems to like it


You dont' start off hitting 95 mph fastballs when you barely know what it takes to swing the bat....

 

[Hierovision]

Exactly true. Someone of my level will inevitably make position mistakes and be forced to shoot a safety within one or two racks. I think we're all actually in agreement in the big picture, it was just presented in a way that was easily misunderstood and some were offended.

 

[Jude Rosenstock]

You proved my point......Hey I am only as insulting as the Next guy...

The point is for a beginner which I am inclined to think the original poster is...Defense and smart play leads to better runs period....Force the other guy into tough spots, and open the rack for run to string runs...

Then we get the typical mentality that you have to run big runs to win and get better which is true....But you can also run 14 play safe, run 14 safe, make 10 safe until and so on until you get the win...

Sure it is not as pretty, but if you know your limitations and play smart you can get the W...

Its a different stategy thats all.....No one seems to like it


You dont' start off hitting 95 mph fastballs when you barely know what it takes to swing the bat....

Kiss, part of the problem here is you lack perspective. I mean, we know what it's like to play straight pool as a D-player. You seem to not know what it's like to play as an A player nor do I think you're aware of how to get there yet.

You're using analogies that make little or no sense and it only adds to the mounting evidence that suggests you're a D-player, too. Now, you want to be successful as a D-player, that's fine. There are plenty of people in this world that live a wonderful life with D-player success. But that's not what this thread nor this forum is about. We're all on the path to greater pool and the goal isn't to maximize your wins against inferior opponents but to try and achieve greatness, even if only for a day.

That's why we're butting heads. That's why it seems like everyone is ganging-up on you. Hey, your strategy will work fine against the local lot of 4-ball runners. If that's straight pool for you, fine. There's nothing wrong with it but please try to understand AND RESPECT the fact that you go against the grain here. We, the members of azb, are not about that. For most of us, our goals are slightly higher.

 

[The Kiss]

No Jude, here's what you don't get...I play pretty solid B level straight pool in fact it is my best game...i don't lack any perspective I have been playing straight pool for over 20 years and have soaked up knowledge from better Older players all along the way..

Many of them High ball runners, my own high run is 44 hit 30s consitantley......I have also infuriated beter players into losses with great safety play...Straight pool can be won in the head or with the high run...


I go against the grain because I have the ability to think...therefore I am..

I don't need some guy like you to explain any thing about the game to me..Thanks

Blackjack and Steve I value what they have to say....Jude You just come off as a troll that does'nt agree so I am wrong......You have a high opinion of your self..I've played this game a long time and all over the East Coast, paid my dues and you talk about Respect...But you have a strange way of Showing any

 

[The Kiss]

No Jude, here's what you don't get...I play pretty solid B level straight pool in fact it is my best game...i don't lack any perspective I have been playing straight pool for over 20 years and have soaked up knowledge from better Older players all along the way..

Many of them High ball runners, my own high run is 44 hit 30s consitantley......I have also infuriated beter players into losses with great safety play...Straight pool can be won in the head or with the high run...


I go against the grain because I have the ability to think...therefore I am..

I don't need some guy like you to explain any thing about the game to me..Thanks

Blackjack and Steve I value what they have to say....Jude You just come off as a troll that does'nt agree so I am wrong......You have a high opinion of your self..I've played this game a long time and all over the East Coast, paid my dues and you talk about Respect...But you have a strange way of Showing any

 

[Jude Rosenstock]

No Jude, here's what you don't get...I play pretty solid B level straight pool in fact it is my best game...i don't lack any perspective I have been playing straight pool for over 20 years and have soaked up knowledge from better Older players all along the way..

Many of them High ball runners, my own high run is 44 hit 30s consitantley......I have also infuriated beter players into losses with great safety play...Straight pool can be won in the head or with the high run...


I go against the grain because I have the ability to think...therefore I am..

I don't need some guy like you to explain any thing about the game to me..Thanks

Blackjack and Steve I value what they have to say....Jude You just come off as a troll that does'nt agree so I am wrong......You have a high opinion of your self..I've played this game a long time and all over the East Coast, paid my dues and you talk about Respect...But you have a strange way of Showing any

You know, all you've been is belligerent and disrespectful and throughout this discussion, I've tried to be respectful of your opinions while voicing my own. You've called me "Fast Eddie" and "a troll" and spent a significant portion of this thread discussing your 8-6 scoring-strategy. The only thing I've done is question your knowledge of the game but that's based entirely on what you've posted thus far.

Paid your dues? I really have NO IDEA what you mean by this. Being respectful and paying your dues have nothing to do with one-another and I'm not going to accept your belligerence because you feel your travels all over the Eastcoast entitles you to such.

 

[philw]

You know, all you've been is belligerent and disrespectful and throughout this discussion, I've tried to be respectful of your opinions while voicing my own. You've called me "Fast Eddie" and "a troll" and spent a significant portion of this thread discussing your 8-6 scoring-strategy. The only thing I've done is question your knowledge of the game but that's based entirely on what you've posted thus far.

Paid your dues? I really have NO IDEA what you mean by this. Being respectful and paying your dues have nothing to do with one-another and I'm not going to accept your belligerence because you feel your travels all over the Eastcoast entitles you to such.

Jude, you have been nothing but respectful. I have read this entire thread and am wondering why Kiss keeps responding. The information you, Blackjack, and numerous others have posted exhibits a wealth of knowledge of the game. I really think Kiss was just trying to stir people up.
After awhile it's apparent that he is hardheaded and can't comprehend your posts. Thanks for all the insightful not inciteful information I can't wait to play some straight pool now!! Philw

 

[The Kiss]

Whatever.....The original question was about strategies in 14.1

According to this board there is only one that will work for getting better at 14.1...Make more balls...

Is there only 1 stategy in any game? Baseball, basketball???

Is it more important to learn to put the ball in the hoop in basketball first, or to learn how to pass, or play defense, rebound.....Or in time do you put it all together....

You keep adding pieces to your game ideas and strategies...Eventually it all comes together...

You don't walk before you can run

 

[pdcue]

Whatever.....The original question was about strategies in 14.1

According to this board there is only one that will work for getting better at 14.1...Make more balls...

Is there only 1 stategy in any game? Baseball, basketball???

Is it more important to learn to put the ball in the hoop in basketball first, or to learn how to pass, or play defense, rebound.....Or in time do you put it all together....

You keep adding pieces to your game ideas and strategies...Eventually it all comes together...

You don't walk before you can run

You got pi$$'d because I compared you to Fast Larry
You've convinced me, the time has come for me to
make an apology...............

To Fast Larry

Dale<who knows one when he sees one>

 

[Gerry]

No Jude, here's what you don't get...I play pretty solid B level straight pool in fact it is my best game...i don't lack any perspective I have been playing straight pool for over 20 years and have soaked up knowledge from better Older players all along the way..

Many of them High ball runners, my own high run is 44 hit 30s consitantley......I have also infuriated beter players into losses with great safety play...Straight pool can be won in the head or with the high run...


I go against the grain because I have the ability to think...therefore I am..

I don't need some guy like you to explain any thing about the game to me..Thanks

Blackjack and Steve I value what they have to say....Jude You just come off as a troll that does'nt agree so I am wrong......You have a high opinion of your self..I've played this game a long time and all over the East Coast, paid my dues and you talk about Respect...But you have a strange way of Showing any

you've been playing 14.1 for 20 years and 44 is your best run?....you have no place spewing advise...ESPECIALLY to 100+ ball runners.

your a thinker huh?....think about a new way to go about the game....44 ball high run in 20 years is an example of a bad process......but then again those who can't teach! or trry to teach.

YES you do need a guy like him to explain the game to you!......now go think about that....

I can run 40/50 weekly, with a few runs in the 100's......I'm from the East Coast, and I don't consider myself a straight pool player.......YET!

Gerry

 

[acedotcom]

I hope this won't be considered an attempted "hi-jacking" of this thread, but something that has always confounded me about 14.1 is finding dead balls in the stack that you can use to break them up.

When I began playing many years ago, the owner of a little one-table pool room I used to go to (an older guy) was incredible at finding dead balls in the stack. He'd study the stack from all angles, then call a ball that was right smack dab in the middle to go in the corner pocket. He'd blast away (or that's how it appeared, at least), and sure enough, that ball that had been surrounded would slowly make it's way through the chaos and drop right in the corner pocket. I could never get him to share his knowledge about how to do that. He'd just say, "That's my secret, Boy." He never ran more than 30 balls or so (always blew position or a thin cut), but he was incredible at finding dead balls.

Anybody know this secret? Any books out there about it?

George in VA

I would just say that dead shots in the rack are primarily of two kinds: 1. Frozen ball combos with throw and 2. Kiss shots. Once you know how two frozen balls react when approached from different angles, and you know how balls are going to deflect off each other, you should be able to determine the majority of dead shots in the rack. Other shots, may be more intricate involving two or three other elements, like a throw-kiss-combo. BTW, this skill is transferable to other games too. It never ceases to amaze me when players miss simple shots involving two frozen balls because they strike them on the wrong side.

Off hand, I know that Mosconi On Pocket Billiards covers this briefly.

 

[dmgwalsh]

This is beginner-strategy. I've said this before; beginner-strategy almost need not be discussed. It should go without saying that you don't blast the rack when no shot is evident.

My point is that when a shot IS available, you take it. When there's a break-shot, you play for it. The goal is to run balls NOT to get 8 points per rack. If you want to get better at this game, you'll have to get past 8-6 and start thinking of how to clear the table and get into the next rack. I find that people who think 8-6 never grow out of it. People who think 'run' are always improving.

I agree with Jude. The only way to improve is to try to play 14.1 the right way, even if you can't quite do it yet. I'm in 2 straight pool leagues and some of the guys have been in the leagues for many years and barely improve. They pick off whatever is on the table and rarely work for a break shot. If you leave the intended break shot on the table, it may be the first thing they
pick off.

A few weeks ago, I lost a match to a better shooter, but I didn't feel too bad, because I was getting on a lot of my break shots and getting part of the way through the next rack before I did something stupid and handed my broken racks over to him. It occurred to me that I was breaking most of the racks and that his patterns were not quite as good as mine. At least I was improving a certain aspect of my game.

Last thursday a guy I played that I had to spot 65 balls to in a race to 125 got the same break shot at least three times. Nothing. He calls safe, pots the ball and gives me a 15 ball rack to look at. I remarked that that was his favorite break shot, but I don't think he got it.

I think we have to try to play the right way and hopefully execution will get better.

 

[The Kiss]

you've been playing 14.1 for 20 years and 44 is your best run?....you have no place spewing advise...ESPECIALLY to 100+ ball runners.

your a thinker huh?....think about a new way to go about the game....44 ball high run in 20 years is an example of a bad process......but then again those who can't teach! or trry to teach.

YES you do need a guy like him to explain the game to you!......now go think about that....

I can run 40/50 weekly, with a few runs in the 100's......I'm from the East Coast, and I don't consider myself a straight pool player.......YET!

Gerry

I won't let this die.....My only point is running balls and winning the game is to entirely 2 DIFFERENT THINGS.....If you can't run balls yet learn some defense...Thats it can you people understand that???????

Unless you can run out every time you need to kinow what to do when the run is over...Or how to get the run started with Defense...Hello..... Point blank simple

What is so earth shaking about that???? I am not doubting the process of better play ideas from Blackjack or Steve....I don't play as good as them nor have i spent the time or do I want to to play the game up to their level..

Many peolpe in this World have knowledge it is'nt the 100 ball runners who ONLY have something positive to offer...

According to you guys it is this way...bunch of lemmings


I'lll leave you with this idea...In the professional Sports coaching ranks name me all the Superstars who went on to become great Coaches Vs. The Becnch Warmers and Scrubs who went on to Championships

Point is the Stars and the Knowledge of the game is'nt Exclusive by a long shot...

But according to most of the collective opinions of this board that is the way it works....Get a life or an origianl thought either one might be a First...

 

[pdcue]

speaking of getting a life

I won't let this die.....My only point is running balls and winning the game is to entirely 2 DIFFERENT THINGS.....If you can't run balls yet learn some defense...Thats it can you people understand that???????

Unless you can run out every time you need to kinow what to do when the run is over...Or how to get the run started with Defense...Hello..... Point blank simple

What is so earth shaking about that???? I am not doubting the process of better play ideas from Blackjack or Steve....I don't play as good as them nor have i spent the time or do I want to to play the game up to their level..

Many peolpe in this World have knowledge it is'nt the 100 ball runners who ONLY have something positive to offer...

According to you guys it is this way...bunch of lemmings


I'lll leave you with this idea...In the professional Sports coaching ranks name me all the Superstars who went on to become great Coaches Vs. The Becnch Warmers and Scrubs who went on to Championships

Point is the Stars and the Knowledge of the game is'nt Exclusive by a long shot...

But according to most of the collective opinions of this board that is the way it works....Get a life or an origianl thought either one might be a First...

Why do you continue with such a comitment to stupidity?
How many times have you been told the OP asked for advice on
running ball - not winning games

How many times have you been told we all understand defence matters?

Perhaps you might find someone who can read with comprehension
to explain the post to you, since you quite obviously can't
understand on your own.

It is a bit disturbing that everyone else on this forum is enjoying
positive info exchange and even polite conversation.

It's truly a shame you are so miserable you need to try to
disrupt such a good situation just to get a little atention

Welcome to the blocked list

Dale