225 ball run at Derby
- Thread starter dmgwalsh
- Start date
And by a guy who didn't know how to shoot the opening break shot safety.
thank you for putting this up, Dennis. very interesting to watch him work through situations that are very common, sometimes coming up with the conventional approach, often not.
just shy of 49:00, he complains about the skidding he's getting, which is hardly surprising given the Astonishing amount of chalk he's grinding into that tip with almost every shot!
people don't seem to get that you don't actually need Any chalk on the apex of the tip at all, and just a light brush of it on the sides. that much chalk just becomes a thick paste on the tip and is blasted off the cue with every shot, making everything filthy. it is a nervous habit or a zen-mode distraction while thinking.
maybe i should start over-chalking and see if my runs go up...
just shy of 49:00, he complains about the skidding he's getting, which is hardly surprising given the Astonishing amount of chalk he's grinding into that tip with almost every shot!
people don't seem to get that you don't actually need Any chalk on the apex of the tip at all, and just a light brush of it on the sides. that much chalk just becomes a thick paste on the tip and is blasted off the cue with every shot, making everything filthy. it is a nervous habit or a zen-mode distraction while thinking.
maybe i should start over-chalking and see if my runs go up...
Tremendous run. I never knew Lee Vann played 14.1 at this level. He has been a favorite player of mine for a long time BUT I would never count the run for any value as he may have set the world record for the amount of times the cue ball was cleaned. I have never done this playing 14.1 once a run started unless there was something on the cue ball like a piece of hair or lint. At least it was a neutral towel with no silicone on it. Great run Lee Vann.
Bobby: Nice to hear from you. We pretty much allowed the cue ball to be cleaned whenever asked, but that was it. The balls were never cleaned or changed mid-run. Aramith polish had been used to clean the balls, but was applied sparingly. Fresh balls were used at the beginning of the player's innings upon request. I don't think having the cue ball cleaned affects the integrity of the run, but there will be nit pickers in all things.
Lee Vann claimed he had never played straight pool before.
Thanks Dennis.
The break shot in the final rack - I wonder how others play that shot. What I do is if the cue ball is going to strike the rack in front of the middle ball I use inside to go 3 rails, past the middle ball I use outside to go 1 rail. It looked like Corteza hit the middle ball and used inside.
Either way my biggest problem is exactly what happened to Corteza. I run into a ball before I get to the middle of the table.
The break shot in the final rack - I wonder how others play that shot. What I do is if the cue ball is going to strike the rack in front of the middle ball I use inside to go 3 rails, past the middle ball I use outside to go 1 rail. It looked like Corteza hit the middle ball and used inside.
Either way my biggest problem is exactly what happened to Corteza. I run into a ball before I get to the middle of the table.
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Dennis I geuss cleaning the cue ball every now and then like after every 4 racks or so wouldn't be so bad but at an average of 2 times a rack if I might say so is to much or is that nit picking. I believe you did a great job having the balls cleaned and in the same condition for each player before their inning started is very fair and well thought out.
When Jay Helfert had to leave the Tournament directors job at the US Open last year I had to take his place and part of the job was to Referee the matches and in 1 GAME Corey Deuel had me clean the cue ball 4 times. After the match he apologized and said with so much at stake including making the Mosconi cup he hated to lose from a skid. All I was saying was the cue ball was cleaned to many times and I wouldn't recognize the run as much because of it. I suppose since it happened when he wasn't in a match it wasn't so bad but, if it was in a match would it have been ok or would it be right for the other player to object to the cue ball being cleaned so much. Whats your opinion on someone putting silicone on the cue ball without the other player knowing, putting the cue ball in their pocket or having wax in their towel and applying it to the cue ball in a match or after a run starts or is this nit picking.
I have had many high runs end on a skid and it sucks but that's the game. I think its important not to alter the game once it starts. I think there is no doubt many others including myself would have many higher runs if the cue ball was cleaned this many times.
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I have not been involved in many tournaments. What is the protocol there in regards to cleaning the cue ball when requested? I think that with a lot at stake, these players should get great conditions. If I thought they were abusing the privilege, I would do something. I know Dennis Orcollo gets it cleaned a bit, but his table is generally messier. I was not there during the Lee Vann run.
Silicone on the ball alters things way too much. The cue ball would draw a ton more, etc. It would be very hard to control the cue ball if that happened. We do not allow that to happen at our event.
We had the most entries ever, the highest added money; world class players were waiting and waiting to get into our event. Many said it was the only reason they came. I prefer to look at the positives, Bobby, but that is just me.
For many decades the following official statement has been (and still is) in the BCA's official rules within the "Instruction for Referees" category and its general meaning is pertinent and applicable within the portions of this thread relating to cleaning the CB:
3.12 CLEANING BALLS
During a game a player may ask the referee to clean one or more balls. The referee will clean any visibly soiled ball.
IMO, by extrapolation, multiple requests for cleaning of the CB during a shooter's turn(s) at the table should be honored every time and moreover, should not in any way reflect negatively in an assessment of the quality of a given player's performance.
Arnaldo
3.12 CLEANING BALLS
During a game a player may ask the referee to clean one or more balls. The referee will clean any visibly soiled ball.
IMO, by extrapolation, multiple requests for cleaning of the CB during a shooter's turn(s) at the table should be honored every time and moreover, should not in any way reflect negatively in an assessment of the quality of a given player's performance.
Arnaldo
Hi Arnaldo -- I haven't read the statement that you cite, or any others that might come into play, but based solely on what you've quoted, it appears that the referee should (note the use of the word "will" rather than the word "shall" in the statement, and thus my use of the word "should" rather than the word "must"), upon request, clean "any visibly soiled" ball, not "any ball." Leaving aside the question of what condition qualifies as "visibly soiled," I would think that, if the referee were to follow this statement, he/she would not automatically clean the CB whenever asked, but would instead look for soiling and, upon finding none, decline to clean it. Regards, Seth.
It is hard to find a cue ball in play that doesn't have chalk spots on it.
You are certainly correct -- although the frequency with which the CB was being cleaned during this run (as described above -- I've yet to watch it) evokes the image of the referee and the players circling the CB, squatting, pointing, and declaring, "There, I see one. Don't you see it ?" This begs the question of what was meant by "visibly soiled." In the legislative arena, intent is identified in historical documents that precede or accompany a final bill. Is there anything in the annals here? If not, any personal knowledge about the intent? The word "soiled" is a bit of an odd one to describe chalk spots that are, as you point out, expected to be present at almost any time one might inspect the CB. In the absence of any evidence of intent, is it reasonable to conclude that the BCA knowingly made it a rule that a player can have the referee clean the CB as frequently as necessary to keep it spotless? I have no knowledge about the actual intent, but my guess would be that the BCA never imagined that any player would ask for the CB to be cleaned unless it "looked pretty dirty" or unless there was what I might call a "stand out" chalk mark (deposit) evident on it. But that's just my uneducated speculation.
So, Bob, whaddaya think of a player getting the CB cleaned at the start of every rack, or after a big stroke (that would presumably leave a chalk mark)?
And what about the player hisself cleaning and replacing the CB v. a ref?
Lou Figueroa
It got to the point where it appeared he was calling for the CB to be cleaned, as a matter of course, at the start of every rack.
Lou Figueroa
and several
other times
This is beautiful. Leave it to Bobby and Lou to turn this into a "clean the cue ball" thread.
I'll put up a couple of more runs. Bobby, Lou: Don't watch the patterns or the runs but let us know if anyone abuses their right to get the cue ball cleaned. That is what most straight pool enthusiasts are interested in.
I'll put up a couple of more runs. Bobby, Lou: Don't watch the patterns or the runs but let us know if anyone abuses their right to get the cue ball cleaned. That is what most straight pool enthusiasts are interested in.
Dennis, I know you have a history of being sensitive about anyone questioning what goes on during the 14.1 competition and given the hours you put in, I understand. But even you would have to admit that what happened with the CB cleaning during this run was unusual.
I think it's worth discussing things like this.
His patterns were all over the place. So there
Lou Figueroa
At nine ball you often see the player clean the cue ball before breaking. Of course after would be better but that would probably get an objection from a lot of players. For 14.1 I think once a rack is not unreasonable. There was one match at DCC where I cleaned the cue ball before each break shot at the request of the players and after a skid, IIRC. Some players want the cue ball cleaned when they are about to shoot one of those touchy shots that is prone to skid.
I think Mika was cleaning the cue ball himself. Assuming it is marked well, I don't see any problem with this, but it should be done by the referee if available. It is rare that the 1mm or so of randomness in the replacement will make any difference to the shot.