APA double hit thread of the day

[boblzer0]

this situation came up in a match last night. the guy had ball in hand and placed whitey as illustrated at which point i was laughing my ass off. whitey is frozen to the rail and there's maybe 2 credit cards widths between the 2 balls. he jacks up with "lower left" english and smashes it. we had a spotter who called the hit good at which point we freaked out. apparently if you jackup people think you can't double hit. what do you guys think? the path of the object ball could be slightly wrong but they cueball was chasing it down like a bat out of hell. he was trying to make it in the bottom left corner and we knew he was going to miss it anyway but still.

http://CueTable.com/P/?@1BbRa3DXPB2HVTV3MbBw3Nacf3PbAx3XXPB4Xbah3XDhi3XEGj3kbAx4kbpW4kFJT@

the guy was a donkey and we won the match (all 5 actually lol)

 

[Ball Banger]

boblzer0

Here is some advice from an old man. Life is too short to let the donks get under your skin. Best way to stay away from donks is to not play APA.

 

[boblzer0]

boblzer0

Here is some advice from an old man. Life is too short to let the donks get under your skin. Best way to stay away from donks is to not play APA.

the worst part about it is that we had someone spot it and afterwards tried to explain it. it seems so obvious. it's just laws of physics. in this particular shot with the rail there it was impossible. even if he shot the cue straight down he was going to hit it twice unless he just touched the top of the ball and pulled back very quickly. if the cue hit the table there was simply not enough room for the cue and the ball.

 

[s'portplayer]

boblzer0

Here is some advice from an old man. Life is too short to let the donks get under your skin. Best way to stay away from donks is to not play APA.

What he said, for the most part.

Don't sweat it and chalk it up to someone who doesn't have a clue on how to play pool and move on....They won't be much of a threat to win anyway.

Atleast, in my area, we have alot of good people that play APA, and those far outweigh the "donks".

 

[hbend]

Your opponent would have been better off freezing the CB to the OB. In APA it's not illegal to push through the ball. Personally, I think it's a stupid rule (non-rule), but it is what it is.

 

[dr_dave]

this situation came up in a match last night. the guy had ball in hand and placed whitey as illustrated at which point i was laughing my ass off. whitey is frozen to the rail and there's maybe 2 credit cards widths between the 2 balls. he jacks up with "lower left" english and smashes it. we had a spotter who called the hit good at which point we freaked out. apparently if you jackup people think you can't double hit. what do you guys think? the path of the object ball could be slightly wrong but they cueball was chasing it down like a bat out of hell. he was trying to make it in the bottom left corner and we knew he was going to miss it anyway but still.

http://CueTable.com/P/?@1BbRa3DXPB2HVTV3MbBw3Nacf3PbAx3XXPB4Xbah3XDhi3XEGj3kbAx4kbpW4kFJT@

the guy was a donkey and we won the match (all 5 actually lol)

Tell the "donkey" and his friends to watch the videos here:

http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/fouls.html#double​

The videos might help them have a better understanding the next time they need to detect and/or prevent a double hit. Yeah, right!!!

Regards,
Dave

 

[TimKrazyMon]

Ok, here's the deal with APA. If you jack up on the cue stick & generate sufficient backspin that the cue does not follow the object ball, that is a good hit & will be called as such EVERY TIME.

In this case, however, since the cue followed & the two balls were as close as you say, this should have been called a bad hit, no contest.

 

[boblzer0]

Tell the "donkey" and his friends to watch the videos here:

http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/fouls.html#double​

The videos might help them have a better understanding the next time they need to detect and/or prevent a double hit. Yeah, right!!!

Regards,
Dave

yeah right is right, they seem to lack the concept of the reaction of the cueball and spin. also they jacked up!!! 45 degrees even!!! it can't be a foul!!

 

[GoTulane]

well......

the worst part about it is that we had someone spot it and afterwards tried to explain it. it seems so obvious. it's just laws of physics. in this particular shot with the rail there it was impossible. even if he shot the cue straight down he was going to hit it twice unless he just touched the top of the ball and pulled back very quickly. if the cue hit the table there was simply not enough room for the cue and the ball.

Haven't you learned - Physics isn't allowed in the APA

But like the others said, get over it, and understand that no matter how good your argument, some will just never understand. Just realize who they are, and understand how to play them in the future.

Some donkeys will never learn:

 

[brechbt]

Someone might be a semi-serious average player and still not understand these concepts, if he had never spent time on this site or with a more knowledgeable player. I tend to cut people some slack in this kind of situation, and have a low-key discussion to see if they genuinely want to learn, or not. If you can keep the discussion from devolving into a pissing match, then you can help an open-minded person move up a bit in their knowledge of the game. If the person is only interested in being right, then don't waste your time.

 

[CreeDo]

They just need to make a serious effort to nail down rules. Maybe their feeling is that covering every detail in rules is against the spirit of casual play. But it's also against the spirit to have people arguing and shouting over every little foul.

I found the nearest thing they have to a rulebook here:
http://www.poolplayers.com/documents/TeamManual2010.pdf

They only say that 30 degrees of elevation (or 30 degrees of cutting away from the ball) will help prevent push fouls... BUT, a player doesn't absolutely have to do this because push fouls won't be called in amateur play. It's not against the rules. BUT if a player consistently does it all the time with a level cue and no effort to shoot away from the ball, they can be called for a "sportsmanship violation"

All of this following a statement that even pros can't agree on what's a push. What's not to agree on? If the balls are frozen, anything goes. If they're not and you double hit with the cue tip, it's a foul. The hard part is [supposedly] in detecting that double hit but I never had any trouble spotting it.

The manual makes no distinction between balls that are touching vs. very close when describing push fouls. They need to iron these things out and stop dicking around with vague guidelines. Either it's a foul or not. None of this wishy washy "it's not a foul but it's frowned upon, and at someone's (whose?) discretion, we can decide it is when we get sick of you doing it."

 

[lukemindish]

I always thought that it was a foul to hold the cue level and push through the ball. I always thought you had to jack up and basically punch down through the cue ball. I play APA and that bs i cant believe in the rule book that they dont have that designated as a foul. Thats rediculous!

 

[boblzer0]

I always thought that it was a foul to hold the cue level and push through the ball. I always thought you had to jack up and basically punch down through the cue ball. I play APA and that bs i cant believe in the rule book that they dont have that designated as a foul. Thats rediculous!

in this particular shot he did jack up but he still double hit the cueball. if the rail wasn't there he probably could've shot it with the cue straight up and down of course this guy was a 2 so i'm sure that shot wasn't in his bag. it wasn't his idea anyway it was his captains.

 

[CreeDo]

Something worth mentioning (which I never really thought much about until bob jewett mentioned it) is that jacking up, even fairly high, doesn't really prevent many double hits.

In this pic (where there's less than half a ball's width between CB and OB)... the black tip and gray cue ball are the starting position, and the blue tip and red ball are where they end up midstroke. Angled fairly heavily to 60 degrees, this tip is clearly gonna punch forward and hit the CB a second time. Even if you hit the CB differently, bring the stick further from the CB and hitting lower on it, you would have to jerk the stick out of the way instantly before the CB went backwards even a half inch.

There are other subtle factors (the cue ball will hop, the cue stick will flex backwards a bit out of the way) but the bottom line is... when it's this close, I wouldn't risk playing the shot with elevation only.

 

[Luxury]

An ex league operator kept it simple by saying there was no double hit fouls period. He explained that you can't explain them to 2s and 3s and they will quit. When asked about top players abusing the rule to get shape he said it's the same advantage for everyone.

 

[uwate]

I had an APA match where the guy jacks up with two balls close but not frozen. He fires the shot and of course the cueball goes like 3 rails around the table. I stepped up and said...thats a foul right? immediately everyone around me goes..oh no thats not a foul. My own team members were like no foul. I looked at my opponent and said, well it was a foul but w/e, carry on.

Ive had my OWN team mate shark me ridiculously on the 8ball on double hill before in APA. I have had a guy slop in two balls as he ran out all the while the other team chants APA APA APA. I have had people cheering like its a football game when my team scratched on the 8.

If you can't fade that kind of stuff, APA is not for you.

 

[lukemindish]

Lets not get off topic, the thread is about double hits. Not idiots you have encountered along the way.

Creedo thanks for that diagram the way you explained it and he visual aid helped showing that jacking up isnt even enough sometimes.

 

[boblzer0]

i love this graphic. this what was the point they didn't seem to grasp. i wish they'd take out the whole 45 degree guideline. it confuses the shit out of people to think u can't foul like that. i like the bca guideline of the cueball traveling forward more the a half ball either although that's not perfect either.

Something worth mentioning (which I never really thought much about until bob jewett mentioned it) is that jacking up, even fairly high, doesn't really prevent many double hits.

In this pic (where there's less than half a ball's width between CB and OB)... the black tip and gray cue ball are the starting position, and the blue tip and red ball are where they end up midstroke. Angled fairly heavily to 60 degrees, this tip is clearly gonna punch forward and hit the CB a second time. Even if you hit the CB differently, bring the stick further from the CB and hitting lower on it, you would have to jerk the stick out of the way instantly before the CB went backwards even a half inch.

There are other subtle factors (the cue ball will hop, the cue stick will flex backwards a bit out of the way) but the bottom line is... when it's this close, I wouldn't risk playing the shot with elevation only.

 

[dr_dave]

i love this graphic. this what was the point they didn't seem to grasp. i wish they'd take out the whole 45 degree guideline. it confuses the shit out of people to think u can't foul like that. i like the bca guideline of the cueball traveling forward more the a half ball either although that's not perfect either.

Here's a good video demonstration of many different elevated-cue double and single hits showing that all "simple" rules have problems.

HSV B.6 - double hit detection and avoidance​

Other related videos, and a lot more information can be found here:

http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/fouls.html#double​

Enjoy,
Dave

 

[boblzer0]

awesome site, it's yours isn't it? it's totally badass.

Here's a good video demonstration of many different elevated-cue double and single hits showing that all "simple" rules have problems.

HSV B.6 - double hit detection and avoidance​

Other related videos, and a lot more information can be found here:

http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/fouls.html#double​

Enjoy,
Dave