Skate board artist too!
assembly methods
- Thread starter whammo57
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Skate board artist too!
Skate board artist too!
I would hardly call myself a "Skate board artist". I did make some inlaid and intarsia long boards back in the early 70's when I was a just a kid. Hey, a guy's got to have something to put on his resume. And since I don't have any arrests or convictions in my past I can't very well put down "Career Criminal"... now can I?
I guess AZB's "expert" on all things, Rick, feels that I should somehow be ashamed or embarrassed by his "skateboard" reference. I'm not. It was fun building them and fun racing them too. As for the "artist" part, I've accomplished a few things that neither he nor you EVER will. I've been paid to create major art pieces for a number of federally-funded projects. I've produced a lot of commercial art (and gotten paid for it), including a Billiard's Digest cover. I've won a number of "Best of Show" with my cues, and they can be found in many, many major collections. So I guess "artist" is a fair accusation.
Oh, and on that subject, do let me know if/when you or your new bestest pal Rick ever are asked to provide a cue for exhibition at the Smithsonian. I won't hold my breath.
TW
(PS: Still curious to know if you support Rick's contention that the A-joint in a cue with cured epoxy can somehow contain a "hydraulic potential". You put out a bunch of instructional videos, so you must consider yourself an expert - surely you have an opinion on the matter.)
TW,
You are amazing and I am sorry you don't understand the principals or what I have been explaining but I will give it one last try.
Oh by the way, I did not say that this was a common place happenstance and I admit that all the stars have to line up just perfectly for it to happen as it did for Ray Schuler.
If you create air pressure or hydraulic head differential within the confined space the epoxy in the liquid state will have the same PSIG as the compressed air in that space. That positive pressure will exert an even jacking force to the thin wall in that area. When the media cures that force if still in place and the compressed air as well.
So when the outside ambient atmospheric condition is lowered the trapped compressed air has an even greater expansion coefficient because to the increased differential. Since the stress has already been pre cast on the the wall when the epoxy formed a solid, any force that is created by the pressure differential between the inside and the outside can be a straw that breaks the camel's back or cracks the thin wall.
As I said this is not an easy thing to replicate but I could do it if I still owned a hyperbaric chamber. And here is how I would do it.
Set up to do an A Joint
Make the tenon a very tight fit and do not leave the normal size and depth etched grooves on the tenon for equalization of the liquid epoxy.
Mix up some thick quick cure epoxy and put off installing the epoxy within the hole by at least a minute.
Screw the joint together with an iron hand and not a in slow and delicate way until the face is made. Some epoxy will have to ooze out but since the operator does not have x ray vision he can not tell if air has been trapped in the inside area where the end grain where the inner faces don't face.
I would not take much volume of compressed air to make the injury occur later.
Then let it cure and go flying.
As I said when you were making your skate board designs in the 70s I was already a journeyman commercial diver designing pressure bulkheads and doing a lot of other projects and designs that required me to understand the principals involved here. Also as one of the certified PVHO (Pressure Vessel For Human Occupancy) Hyperbaric Chamber Operators in my company, peoples lives were at stake when I was at the control of the valves as was mine when I was in the pot doing Surface Decompression and one of my supervisors was in control.
As I said in response when Royce made a statement. It would not take much volume of air to be trapped thus increasing the jacking force on the thin wall that is already prestressed. If you aren't starting to get it by now TW, you are un educatable. There may still be hope for you if your read on because I am trying hard to be a teacher to you but you must clear your brain of the hog wash and half truths you manifest as a defense mechanism. Let it go man! You will feel better in the long run.
When I said there are funny things that happen concerning hydraulics and air pressure environments and also when air pressure and liquids exist in the same vessel. The average layman would not understand some things that could be observed without study and experience in these areas.
Just because it is 2 in the morning, I just finished spraying some cues in my shop and it will take me a hour or so to unwind before go to bed, I will give you an example of the type of thing that may also be confusing to the layperson. By the way I have also seen this happen. For those who are still reading, this is a cool example how just a little volume can have the effect of a Hurricane or Massive earthquake concern damage to a solid engineered vessel. Not a thin piece of wood.
The amplification of loading forces concerning hydraulics.
Build a huge water tank 30 feet in diameter and 30 feet tall made of curved steel plates welded to ASTME Code standards for as a water vessel capable of holding that 30' water column with structural safety. (Very Very strong) That tank holds a large volume of water and the 13 pisg or so head differential can be measured at the very bottom and as you go up the water column the pressure decreases, So the total load or weight of the water trying to deform the tank's side plates is the greatest at the bottom.
Now seal the top of the tank and weld a 1" diameter pipe at the top and extend that pipe up 100 feet in elevation. Fill the tank and measure the diameter of tank at the bottom on the outside. Also measure the water pressure at the bottom of the tank by welding a threaded pipe coupling bulkhead penetrator and screw on a Pressure Gauge.
Fill the tank to the top and read the Gauge; It should read .445 psig x 30' or 13.35 pounds of pressure square inch. Divide that by two and that gives you the average pressure loading on the tank walls. Multiply that by the total surface area of the tank walls and you will see that the are hundreds of tons of loading on that vessel with the most pressure load at the very bottom.
Now start to fill the 1" pipe with water and you will find as that 1" water column raises it creates the same pressure at the bottom of the tank as if the entire tank was 30' in diameter and 100' tall. As pipe fills you will note that the pressure gauge will increase .445 for every foot the water raises and the tank at some point will the tank will start to increase in diameter because it is distorting from increased pressure. What you would see is that as you fill the 1" pipe is that at some point the side of the tank would start to bulge and distort. At some point the plates would fail and the solid steel vessel would be breached.
This failure would be caused by a one inch water column exerting and amplification of pressure to the total volumetric area of the tank. So just a few gallons of water volume in a stand pipe can have a destructive damaging effect to a structurally engineered vessel rated for a 30 for head differential. The pipe added a 100' head differential with a small volume of water.
Although this is a different situation than the A Joint we have been taking about, it demonstrates that a small volume area can effect the pressure in a vessel that is very hard to understand at first thought unless you are trained and have practical experience in the detail of the physics involved.
So I have to grin a bit when you guys throw into my wheelhouse.
Now the proper thing to do is say "wow Rick thanks for sharing that stuff, I guess I had figured it wrong because things are not always what they appear", I then I say, "thats OK this is pretty tricky stuff, no apology needed". :angel:
Ten years after he has passed, Ray Ray's experience can be shared with the forum and it's all positive and good. It is all about learning a sharing info, Is that not we all come here. As I always say, it is better to share and all get along in the sand box.
Problem Identifed: A Joint Blow out of cues after a flight resulting in overpressure within the cue during assembly.
Corrective Actions: Use slow cure and make sure the entire equalization takes place.
Lessons Learned: Make sure there is adequate vent lines on the dowel and don't use the thicker fast setting epoxy take can trap and crete a positive pressure that can get sealed with the space.
Moral to the story: Keep your mind open and knowledge flows in a path to your door. Closing your mind is one step closer to the graveyard.
JMO,
Rick
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How is huge water tanks relevant to this discussion?
This is the problem with internet discussions, they escalate to ridicolous proportions.
I don`t really think you have to be a structural engineer to figure this stuff out.
Thomas Waynes point about expanding glue/epoxy like gorillaglue getting weaker as it expands is totally understandable.
Having the tightest tolerances possible and using a glue or epoxy that leaves as few air pockets as possible should be the goal for any cuemaker.
This is the problem with internet discussions, they escalate to ridicolous proportions.
I don`t really think you have to be a structural engineer to figure this stuff out.
Thomas Waynes point about expanding glue/epoxy like gorillaglue getting weaker as it expands is totally understandable.
Having the tightest tolerances possible and using a glue or epoxy that leaves as few air pockets as possible should be the goal for any cuemaker.
Dear Rick, In what will undoubtedly be a futile attempt, I'll try to end this silly thread. Hydraulic relates to fluids, which in the case of cured epoxy, where everything is solid, there are none. Trapped pressure in the A joint can't happen because wood is porous and over time it escapes.
Paul,
The hydraulic / pneumatic combination existing in one vessel sharing the same psig when the epoxy is fluid has been explained a few times here.
I guess you missed that point. With all due respect stating that Hydraulic relates to fluid is simple and accepted description by all who have been in this discussion. It is a given that is not in dispute. Your simple statements only demonstrate that you just scanned the posts or can't process stated facts as were also mentioned here with supporting examples. To put this in plain terms, you are way beyond the power curve buddy or the train has left the station long ago concerning the need to define hydraulics.
The cues that Cracked for Ray had been finished just in time and were shipped to New York. So your statement about air releasing over time begs my question of over how much time? Also I guess you can't imagine the fact that the epoxy seals the wood to be air tight with a tight face up. Just some food for thought for you to mull over Paul.
It must be fun for you to want to pile on as a total air head. You are kind of transparent the way I see it. But what do I know anyway. You certainly are entitled to your opinion as I am to mine.
JMO,
Rick
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The plane monster from The Twilight Zone chewed the cues.
It was a Gremlin Joey that drove William Schatner crazy.LOL
The "principals" (it's actually "principles") you have "been explaining" are pure nonsense, but I understand them perfectly. The basic problem is you are unable to differentiate between the hydraulic characteristics of uncured epoxy and the solids characteristics of CURED epoxy. You have incorrectly attributed imaginary qualities to solid, cured epoxy that it simply does not have, and will not exhibit in the manner you so fervently warn us all about. It's all a crazy fantasy of yours that is based in your woeful misunderstanding of elementary physics.
Even the fastest curing epoxy is still in liquid form for at least a minute after A-joint assembly. If the joint splits apart or otherwise fails at that point it is ONLY because of the hydraulic pressure on that liquid. Any "air" being compressed in the assembly is of too low a volume and is against too small a surface area to exert the tremendous pressure you are imagining.
Air moves very freely and compresses very easily - we can very easily hold well in excess of one atmosphere in our delicate lungs without danger of them failing. For air pressure to be compressed to any appreciable pressure at all it requires a very large volume to be compressed into a very small space.
Any air that is not in the form of bubbles within the epoxy itself easily bleeds out of the joint during its initial assembly, and will also push excess epoxy out of its way as it exits the joint cavity. Even if your socket and tenon were HUGE they simply cannot contain enough air to compress down to the pressures necessary to cause the joint to fail AFTER THE EPOXY HAS CURED. You simply cannot trap enough air under enough pressure within the A-joint of a cue to cause the results you claim it can.
BEAUTIFUL! PERFECT! Now we're getting somewhere.
I sincerely think you're bat-shit crazy, but I've been patiently waiting for you to make exactly this claim. I now propose a simple wager to settle this issue once and for all.
I'll put up $5,000. and you do the same. We'll deposit the money into some sort of on-line escrow system, with the total only releasable to either you or me, and controlled by one of owners here on AZB. Either you or I will take all.
You machine an A-joint, designed to entrap some of your imaginary "hydraulic potential", and you assemble it with "fast-setting epoxy". The machining can take place at your leisure, but the gluing and assembly must occur on camera in one unedited take. On camera, immediately prior to assembly, you will sign and date both halves of the joint using permanent ink. You will also install an RFID chip that I will provide (through Sid at Seybert's) so that no "switch" can occur at any time. After assembly you will ship the piece to me.
On camera I will record close-up footage of the signature and date and also confirm the encrypted chip's identity with a chip reader. I will also have the assembly X-rayed for close examination to determine if there are any pre-existing failures caused by hydraulic pressure during glue-up (the ONLY time that can happen outside of your fantasy world).
Having confirmed the joint is sound and the RFID chip is valid, I will then have a PhD of physics on staff at the University of Alaska place the assembly into a vacuum chamber and subject it to the maximum possible vacuum available on earth. This would be the equivalent of flying it in an unpressurized cargo area (on the Space Shuttle, I guess) to the very edge of earth's atmosphere, thereby FAR exceeding your claims of the danger zone in the hold of a regular commercial plane. All of the testing on my end will occur on camera, and all the results documented by a REAL expert on physics in a signed and notarized affidavit.
If the joint fails you get the money. If the joint does NOT fail I get the money. Simple as that.
All the rest or your writing on this subject is simple self-aggrandizing babble. According to you you're an expert in these matters (and a millionaire as well). So let's see you put your money where your mouth is. If you're really so sure of what you claim that should be no problem at all... right?
TW
Oh, one other thing I've been meaning to address, Rick. You insist you are an expert in the fields of hydraulics and air pressure and who knows what else. But you also keep referring to a "hyperbaric chamber", and claim you've owned 2 of them.
Okay, true or not, that's kid of irrelevant. A hyperbaric chamber is designed to hold increased pressure.. Meanwhile, an "unpressurized cargo area" on a plane flying at altitude will exert decreased pressure (vacuum) on its contents. I meant, the two concepts are actually EXACT OPPOSITES, so I'm kind of confused about why you would bring up the whole hyperbaric chamber thing to begin with.
Obfuscation perhaps?
TW
Okay, true or not, that's kid of irrelevant. A hyperbaric chamber is designed to hold increased pressure.. Meanwhile, an "unpressurized cargo area" on a plane flying at altitude will exert decreased pressure (vacuum) on its contents. I meant, the two concepts are actually EXACT OPPOSITES, so I'm kind of confused about why you would bring up the whole hyperbaric chamber thing to begin with.
Obfuscation perhaps?
TW
TW,
Nice distraction from the facts. The simple fact is you can not offer anything that shows that my description of the Physics involved is not absolutely valid.
I am not going to bet with you because # 1 I don't need your money and # 2 don't have to prove anything to you or anyone else. You also know that I don't gamble from the wager Jimbo offered me last week. So now you can project that I am some how defending a weak position by turning you down. Not!!!!
My description is 100% accurate and your rebuttal showing that you have nothing to add to the discussion except extreme prejudice. Prejudice is the antithesis of truth and logic and is a big part if your DNA when you find yourself in the corner after attacking someone. What's funny is you keep coming back for more punishment.
Your rambling around this science that has been presented by me reminds me of the essay question scene at the end of the movie Billy Madison where he creates a simile in his definition where he compares the industrial revolution to the book "The Puppy Who Lost his Way".
We are all now dumber having listen to your rambling on a subject that you don't have any experience with in the practical world.
As I said, to a layman not familiar with these principals things don't always appear as the are. BTW, there is no sin to be mistaken on a complex subject like this. It does not make you dumb and I know you are a super bright guy. It just makes you mistaken in your assumption.
Give it up TW, it is no big deal to be wrong now and then. After all your cue was exhibited in the Smithsonian and your in the freeking HOF. You bust my ass all the time but I you are still my favorite Cue Artist in the whole wide world world. I don't let prejudice rule my decision making process.
Don't worry, be happy.
JMO,
Rick
Nice distraction from the facts. The simple fact is you can not offer anything that shows that my description of the Physics involved is not absolutely valid.
I am not going to bet with you because # 1 I don't need your money and # 2 don't have to prove anything to you or anyone else. You also know that I don't gamble from the wager Jimbo offered me last week. So now you can project that I am some how defending a weak position by turning you down. Not!!!!
My description is 100% accurate and your rebuttal showing that you have nothing to add to the discussion except extreme prejudice. Prejudice is the antithesis of truth and logic and is a big part if your DNA when you find yourself in the corner after attacking someone. What's funny is you keep coming back for more punishment.
Your rambling around this science that has been presented by me reminds me of the essay question scene at the end of the movie Billy Madison where he creates a simile in his definition where he compares the industrial revolution to the book "The Puppy Who Lost his Way".
We are all now dumber having listen to your rambling on a subject that you don't have any experience with in the practical world.
As I said, to a layman not familiar with these principals things don't always appear as the are. BTW, there is no sin to be mistaken on a complex subject like this. It does not make you dumb and I know you are a super bright guy. It just makes you mistaken in your assumption.
Give it up TW, it is no big deal to be wrong now and then. After all your cue was exhibited in the Smithsonian and your in the freeking HOF. You bust my ass all the time but I you are still my favorite Cue Artist in the whole wide world world. I don't let prejudice rule my decision making process.
Don't worry, be happy.
JMO,
Rick
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So the cured epoxy cracked because it had pressure and the pressure in the cargo area made it implode?
If it had no internal pressure, it would have not cracked?
If it had no internal pressure, it would have not cracked?
Wrong again, It is all relative up and down.
Once you are subject to the effects of liquid pressure and air pressure, sea level is + one atmosphere absolute or 14.7 psi and 33 foot water column that doubles in pressure and decreases air volume by 1/2 as described in Boyle's Law. The volume is inversely proportional to the depth, this is referred to as Head Differential. So 33 feet of head pressure or water column is the same weight as the weight of the air in a equal sized column footprint from the edge of space to sea level.
Unlike the cue, the physiology of the body's blood and tissue equalization must be factored as well. That's a whole different ball game but the principals of volume and pressure are universal. I assure you!
As I said, this is a tricky business.
I have no more to say on this subject because all that needs to be said has been said. If you wish to disagree and have something to prove, go for it because I am done being the teacher of the truth. You can preach bad science to the forum all you wish and I will not respond. :deadhorse:
As they say, you can bring the horse to water but you can't make him drink.
JMO ..... over and out,
Rick
There you go again TW, always the negative and innuendos. You say "Claims" that I have owned and operated two chambers. Well I founded a company called Scott Divinig Service Inc. 1978. Here is a pic of my big mobile chamber used for deep jobs. The 3rd guy from the left who looks like a movie star is yours truly. ( Yeah, I used to be like a Greek God, and now I am just a God Damed Greek) LOL. :rotflmao1:
Maybe next you will now suggest that I used photoshop to create this picture so I could bullshit you and the forum. Get real my friend!
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God please help Joey!:help:
Make sure you relieve the pressure on those epoxy-filled cavities under the top of the wrap that is around .960" in diameter.
Don't think of it as a gamble. I certainly don't. For me it's a sure thing. You should think of it as a "research project", jointly funded by you and me. We can be partners in a great quest of discovery. to find out if the story you heard from Ray Schuler could possibly be true. Together we could provide a great, GREAT benefit to the cue-building community!
Our generous funding could provide this fountain of knowledge for future generations of cuemakers to come, and the added benefit would be that one of us would win a sort of "Nobel Prize in Science" at the conclusion. It's win-win... if you can just screw on a pair of balls long enough to put your money where your mouth is.
You believe you are wholly correct in this matter, so how can you consider it "gambling"? Gambling is defined - literally - as risking monetary gain or loss on a "game of chance". But what I propose is not a game of chance at all - it's a scientific experiment, closely controlled (as all experiments should be) and the outcome could change the knowledge base for thousands of current and future cuemakers. We could be making history, if only you could find the courage to rise and meet the challenge.
But you won't, which is too bad. It's always disappointing to see cowardice derail what might have turned out to be a great adventure.
Well, perhaps I can. Answer a couple of questions for me and we'll see:
1) What would be the physical dimensions of this air-filled cavity you imagine in an A-joint that is destined to fail at high altitude?
2) What would be your psi estimate for the air inside the above mentioned cavity at sea level?
3) What are the specific dimensions of your hypothetical A-joint? In other words, what is the diameter and depth of the socket, and what is the diameter and length of the tenon?
Rather than having me estimate those values (only to be told how little I understand by you) we'll rely on YOUR estimates. Give me your theoretical data and we can take it from there.
TW
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Could we not just add a couple of weep holes and be done with it?
Steve
Steve
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