Can you be too smart to play good pool?

[Swighey]

Almost all of the better players in leagues (at least in my area) are engineers, computer programmers and such, doctors, lawyers, high level trades people, those that travel a lot, etc, but there are no really top regional or pro players like that.

I don't know why that is, but I'm guessing those smarter and/or more educated people put time in to get better and try to learn all they can, but are missing the natural talent and time needed to get really good.

This is the same in my experience. But, it might not just be a lack of natural talent. I've seen some incredibly talented players who could certainly at least mix it with the pros over a long run of games. If these guys had the time/were inclined to practice more they would become much more consistent (more consistent than just being 80% in a league in their worst seasons) and wouldn't be have to rely on margins of error as much. The mental game would be different too - these guys play with a lot of freedom as they are 60-40 against even the best players they play against.

Having said that, its a small samples size - I've only seen a handful of league players that I think could be world class (but are happy being world class social players). Time, inclination, talent are all factors.

 

[Tramp Steamer]

You can certainly be stupid enough to walk into a pool room. :smile:

 

[(((Satori)))]

I think there is a level of intelligence required to play great pool, if for nothing else it is for the problem solving that needs to be done in a lot of games.

I also think that pool is a game that requires belief in yourself. I think that there is a way of analyzing the game that makes it harder to believe in your ability. I think it is much harder for the guy who has spent a great amount of time considering every factor required to make a ball, all the way down to what ball polish was used, to get the confidence required to play great pool. When the shot really matters the science guy has a greater tendency to think about all of the ways he could miss this ball imo. That time studying the science would have been better spent on the table imo, simply setting up shots and proving to yourself that you have got this one.

 

[logical]

I even came up with a saying ......

" your too smart to learn " and the other one..." your too smart to ever play good pool"

.........

If you decide to put that on bumper stickers, be aware that the word you want is "YOU'RE"... meaning "you are"

Guess I'm out.

 

[edep12]

No, I don't think so, John.

Being smart never hurts and some pool players are wicked smart, others not so much. The things is, for some guys the game comes to them very naturally and very easily. For other guys it takes work. For the rest, they'll never get it no matter how hard they try.

I believe it is very hard for the guys for whom the game comes naturally to understand just how crushingly difficult it is for the rest of us.

Lou Figueroa

Great point. I think we see this when it comes to incredibly gifted players in all sports. You rarely see a very successful coach who was an incredibly gifted player. It is typically the backup catcher or the moderately athletic point guard that stays in the league through his guile and toughness. It's difficult for the Michael Jordan's and Magic Johnson's to understand that you can't just tell a guy to do something that seems routine for them (due to their greatness). They have a difficult time accepting that most can't just do it and can't quantify/teach them how by conveying it in words.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

If you decide to put that on bumper stickers, be aware that the word you want is "YOU'RE"... meaning "you are"

Guess I'm out.

Obviously a banger.

pj
chgo

 

[SilverCue]

I think so. I also think that it pays to be dumb,or at least act like it.

I even came up with a saying for it,that I tell some people when I'm trying to help them.

" your too smart to learn " and the other one..." your too smart to ever play good pool"

I have never in my life seen or heard that you even have to know how to read or write to play high level pool.

I've seen it my whole life. People that can't read or people that can't walk and chew gum at the same time can play world class pool. ( yeah I know,they just practiced more than you did,well duh!! is what I say to that)

I have come to the conclusion that being or acting too smart will KEEP YOU from ever getting good at this simple game of knocking balls into a hole with a wooden stick.

This game is not complicated unless you want to make it complicated.
It's so simple.....a caveman could do it. John B.

PS: I've just been reading so much hogwash on here that I just can't help myself from trying to save some pool players from alot of the Bull shit that will keep them from ever getting good at this ever so simple game.

Are you saying Effren Reyes is dumb? LOL
He may be the smartest player ever.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

When the shot really matters the science guy has a greater tendency to think about all of the ways he could miss this ball imo.

You think "science guys" missed the part about not thinking when shooting? Or their brains are out of control? Or...?

That time studying the science would have been better spent on the table imo, simply setting up shots and proving to yourself that you have got this one.

So in your opinion, "science guys" choose to "study the science" when they could be playing?

I can see you've got your finger on the pulse of "science guy" psychology.

pj
chgo

 

[Mr. Bond]

There are distinct differences between skill, intelligence, and knowledge.( and wisdom)

In any game with an opponent, (as opposed to a game like golf in which it's simply you vs the course) skill and intelligence will be the most valuable assets.

Which is not to say that knowledge is not needed, or valuable, because it is, but as we all know, there are some very high level players out there, now and in the past, that didn't have a whole hell of a lot of knowledge rolling around in their noggin.

Personally I can't think of any good reason why knowledge or wisdom would hinder your game, unless you let it. And in all reality, there are so many things that can get in your head during a game, why would knowledge be any more of a threat than anything else?

Am I hungry? Do I need to pee? Is that girl single ? Why is Cleary's shirt sooo pink? My feet hurt. My back is getting stiff. I wonder where I left my chalk.... Or who stole it? This room smells like old beer and shoe leather. Did I lock my car? Is it going to rain? Did I record the game ? Who's texting me? Did I bring a phone charger? Is today garbage day? I wonder if I should .....oh wait ...it's my shot ???

Knowledge should, in theory, be stored away until needed. And when needed, should be accessed and then stored away again. Cognitive skill is not knowledge based. In other words, you shouldn't be thinking while you're actually shooting. If you are, it has nothing to do with how " smart" you are and more to do with your capacity or ability to concentrate or focus on the task at hand.

Perceive
Evaluate
Decide
Execute

 

[(((Satori)))]

You think "science guys" missed the part about not thinking when shooting? Or their brains are out of control? Or...?


So in your opinion, "science guys" choose to "study the science" when they could be playing?

I can see you've got your finger on the pulse of "science guy" psychology.

pj
chgo

Perhaps "science guy" is not the correct label for the guys who behave like I am describing but I do do think there are guys out there who over analyze and overthink tthings.

 

[KMRUNOUT]

Here is something I noticed.

The players that need to work on playing and don't get to high levels of play, those that are stuck at B, low A level, tend to be more educated and have more knowledge in general than the real top players.

Almost all of the better players in leagues (at least in my area) are engineers, computer programmers and such, doctors, lawyers, high level trades people, those that travel a lot, etc, but there are no really top regional or pro players like that.

I don't know why that is, but I'm guessing those smarter and/or more educated people put time in to get better and try to learn all they can, but are missing the natural talent and time needed to get really good.

No, I think the "smart" people invested their time in real life, their job, education, etc. I think if you took the average doctor and re-allocated all the time they spend in med school, studying, interning, etc., into pool practice, gambling, tournaments, etc...I think you would have a very high level pool player.

All the high level players around me spent their time playing pool rather than building a life. Opportunity cost, you know?

KMRUNOUT

 

[KMRUNOUT]

It's not about being too smart, it has more to do with certain personality types struggle more than others. Someone who is stubborn and overly analytical will have a rough time of it regardless of intelligence. Being trainable is aptitude like any other.

Stubbornness and intelligence are diametrically opposed. At least by my definition of intelligence. Someone who clings to their beliefs even when the evidence contradicts those beliefs is "stubborn". This is essentially also the definition of "stupid".

Just picking a nit. That may come across as overly analytical, but I assure you it is exactly the right amount of analysis ;-)

KMRUNOUT

 

[SeabrookMiglla]

while i am far from a perfect player, this is my opinion

i think that learning a subject, activity, skill is similar to learning a language. once you've learned one language, it becomes easier to learn another because your brain operates differently and you've practiced. i think that learning a skill is kind of like that, because it does take either being naturally gifted or supreme work ethic to become great at something. i think that kids are good at learning things because their mind is like a sponge, and if they are willing to listen and learn something they can do it. in general, i think as people get older they become more stubborn, more ego, and not as open as a child is. but i also think that if you are having fun with something it makes it much easier and more enjoyable learning. once you stop having fun or loose motivation, its tough to improve.

 

[KMRUNOUT]

I think there's a reason the best pool instructors and the best pool players are mutually exclusive sets.

There is a lot of research showing that verbalizing what you're doing can harm performance. Pool is such a visual task that maybe thinking too much can be bad for you.

Still, learning and using systems, and then baking them into your intutions makes sense. And many systems are very visual - I don't see how those could interfere with pool playing.

I have no idea what you are basing your first sentence on. I took lessons with Earl Strickland, as well as many other "instructors". I learned something from every lesson I took, whether with a pro instructor like Scott Lee, or with a world champion like Earl Strickland. To be honest, I thought Earl was fantastic. Hell, I took a lesson with Bustamante...his english is not so great. Yet he did an excellent job of communicating the *feeling* of certain techniques.

Also, the research you are talking about (I assume, since I've heard the same research), is only talking about trying to both perform AND verbalize *at the same time*. So there is nothing preventing someone from playing entirely by feel, but then being able at a later time to verbalize those feelings. Except of course the limit of their vocabulary and their ability to articulate their ideas.

Sorry don't mean to offend you, but I totally disagree with the concept that great play and great teaching are mutually exclusive. They don't have to be.

KMRUNOUT

 

[KMRUNOUT]

Kinda like the internet-popular motivational quote attributed to Einstein:

“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”

pj <- could climb a tree a few years ago (OK, more than a few)
chgo

Then you must be an excellent fish lol ;-)

KMRUNOUT

 

[Colin Colenso]

I would agree that over-thinking is an issue and sometimes that occurs as a result of intelligent insights into aspects of the game.

That said, part of being smart is to know how to use that knowledge, when to rely on instinct, when to experiment with aspects to develop a better link between instinct and knowledge.

FWIW: Most of the stronger players I've met and listened too seem smarter than the average player I encounter.

I had a coach who told me I was the hardest athlete he ever coached, because I asked so many questions and questioned some of his theories. He also told me that I was the only athlete he ever coached who continued to improve after he'd finished coaching me. Basically, I learned to coach myself. Bless his soul, he passed away last year. A good friend and mentor.

 

[onepocketron]

I don't think it has anything to do with being too smart, just the reverse. I would say a lot of pool players, well, they aren't good at not being right all the time. They have the cotton stuck in their ears, when it should be pulled out of their ears, stuck in their mouth. There are always tons of reasons, and yes excuses, why they lost, missed the shot, or failed to execute, none of which involves THEM.

 

[(((Satori)))]

No, I think the "smart" people invested their time in real life, their job, education, etc. I think if you took the average doctor and re-allocated all the time they spend in med school, studying, interning, etc., into pool practice, gambling, tournaments, etc...I think you would have a very high level pool player.

All the high level players around me spent their time playing pool rather than building a life. Opportunity cost, you know?

KMRUNOUT

Too often I here the "I could have been but I chose __________" excuse though. I think it is probably true what you say about doctors who dedicated their life to studying and going to school for years... IF they had the same passion for playing high level pool and IF they put in the same hours then they probably would bave been able to play great. But how many people who use the "I could have been but chose different" excuse really could have been? The majority of those people who chose "the good life" are nothing more than people who gave up on their real dreams and took the easy way out. They then got stuck with a job they hate and a wife who quit doing it for them long ago. But they are living the good life in the big home that they have mortgaged and driving the fancy car that they have leased, in debt up to their ears which keeps them stuck in the job they hate... but hey, at least they are not a pro pool player... because they were smart enough to choose better.

 

[Swighey]

I don't think it has anything to do with being too smart, just the reverse. I would say a lot of pool players, well, they aren't good at not being right all the time. They have the cotton stuck in their ears, when it should be pulled out of their ears, stuck in their mouth. There are always tons of reasons, and yes excuses, why they lost, missed the shot, or failed to execute, none of which involves THEM.

I agree with this. They'll blame the table, the pockets, the cloth, the humidity when actually their margin for error is why that shot doesn't work 100% of the time. Even the very best do a bit of this - human nature.

 

[Ron Swanson]

You think "science guys" missed the part about not thinking when shooting? Or their brains are out of control? Or...?


So in your opinion, "science guys" choose to "study the science" when they could be playing?

I can see you've got your finger on the pulse of "science guy" psychology.

pj
chgo

Who are the pro players with all da PHDs again?