Carom cue vs. Pool cue

[Raul Newman]

Hi AZBilliards! Love your forum. This is my first post

I've been a pool (9 ball, straight, 8 ball) player for quite a while. I used to fool around playing 3-cushion from time to time.

Recently I have started to really hunker down and try to develop my 3-cushion game. I'm playing enough to justify a cuestick purchase.

Ideally, I'd like something that is versatile enough to use for both pool and billiards. But primarily I want a billiards cue, if I had to choose.

I'm reasonably familiar with what I'd want in a pool cue (18oz., no wrap, pro taper, medium tip, 30" shaft, 13mm tip), but less so with billiard cues.

I'm open to any help/recommendations, and the more specific you can be, the better, in terms of the best tip diameter, hardness, brand, shaft taper, weight, joint type, ferrule, etc etc etc.

I know some of this is subjective -- but that's why I asked here. You are the experts. My high run is 6, for reference, and I play maybe 4 hours/week. About to start joining some local tournaments here in Los Angeles.

Thank you in advance!

 

[iralee]

I'm reasonably familiar with what I'd want in a pool cue (18oz., no wrap, pro taper, medium tip, 30" shaft, 13mm tip), but less so with billiard cues.

I'm open to any help/recommendations, and the more specific you can be, the better, in terms of the best tip diameter, hardness, brand, shaft taper, weight, joint type, ferrule, etc etc etc.

I know some of this is subjective -- but that's why I asked here. You are the experts. My high run is 6, for reference, and I play maybe 4 hours/week. About to start joining some local tournaments here in Los Angeles.

Thank you in advance!

Predator recently developed some exciting new 3-cushion carom cues under the Molinari brand - currently used by the best of the best, Torbjorn Blomdahl. All of their cues feature a newly developed 314.2 3c shaft which significantly lowers deflection when applying sidespin. I play both games (pool and carom) and one of the things that I should point out is how particularly easy it is for a pool player to transition their aiming technique to (and from) carom games using this cue.

I even let my friend Mika (a world-class pool player) play a set of 9-ball with it and he said it was fantastic - even for breaking...

I am selling these on 3cushioncues.com if you are interested. I'll also be at the SBE (booth #110) if you want to try one.

-Ira

 

[Raul Newman]

Thank you, Ira. I am taking a look at your site and the Molinaris now.

As I'm in LA, I won't be able to make the expo. Maybe if there's ever one on the West coast?

As to the specs on billiard cues, they seem to differ in some major ways.

1. Joint - wood screw seems to be most preferred. Why is this? What other joint types are typical for carom?

2. Tip diameter - I see them all the way down to a very narrow 11mm, and up to 12mm or so. Since the balls are bigger in carom, why are the tips smaller? Does medium vs. soft matter?

3. Weight - pool cues run 18-21oz., but I see billiard cues in the 16-19oz range. Why are they lighter?

4. Taper - I love the pro taper (consistent diameter for 18" before widening), but I see lots of billiards shafts are European taper, so they widen all the way from the tip up. Why?

Is there anything major I'm missing?

Overall, has anyone written a "how to select a carom cue" article?

 

[mr3cushion]

Raul; CHK your PM box!

Bill Smith "Mr3Cushion"

 

[zensteve]

Hi Raul,

Check out my site at

www.trafficcontrolcaroms.com

I would be happy to go over differences between pool and carom cues on the phone or by email.

 

[erriep]

Thank you, Ira. I am taking a look at your site and the Molinaris now.

As I'm in LA, I won't be able to make the expo. Maybe if there's ever one on the West coast?

As to the specs on billiard cues, they seem to differ in some major ways.

1. Joint - wood screw seems to be most preferred. Why is this? What other joint types are typical for carom?

2. Tip diameter - I see them all the way down to a very narrow 11mm, and up to 12mm or so. Since the balls are bigger in carom, why are the tips smaller? Does medium vs. soft matter?

3. Weight - pool cues run 18-21oz., but I see billiard cues in the 16-19oz range. Why are they lighter?

4. Taper - I love the pro taper (consistent diameter for 18" before widening), but I see lots of billiards shafts are European taper, so they widen all the way from the tip up. Why?

Is there anything major I'm missing?

Overall, has anyone written a "how to select a carom cue" article?

short about the "traditional" carom cues specifications :

to make it simple , in fact there are 2 kinds of carom games : the "small games" (straight rail, balkline ) and 3 cushion .

the cues for the "small games" are lighter and shorter,with a smaller tip , at best more forward balanced. Usually, lenght of 140cm , weight 460-490g . 480g being a kind of norm. tip diameter 11.0m - 11.5mm . The shaft taper for the small game is usually a modified conical taper to allow a bit of flexibility , but some players do like a conical taper too. about the tips hardness, well, after all it's a mater of taste, but atm many small games carom players tend to prefer Super Soft or Soft tips to the traditional medium tips...

the 3 cushion cues are heavier and longer, with a bigger tip diameter. more rearward balanced.
most of time, 142cm-144cm , weight from 510 to 540g. 520g being a good basis. tip size is usually 12mm. The 3C taper is usually conical.

About the butt size, usually a carom butt is from 71cm to 73cm (29"). so, the carom shafts are shorter than pool shafts.

the joint diameter is usually a bit bigger than pool cues. 22mm usually. I ain't 100% sure, but i believe it's for a better stiffness.

about the joint, well, yes, the wood pin was the norm , but now we see an evolution to metal pins, like "schuler-like" joints (5/16x14 with a 7x8mm pilot) , VP2 (longoni)...

traditionnally, carom cues are wrapless, and used most of time wrapped with a rubber or silicon grip. But now, if you look carefully to Longoni's new products, you'll see wrapped butts. may be to enlarge the offer for the "pool taste" players ? i dunno...

If you would like to have a versatile set to play both 3c and pool with the same butt, you could use the new molinari/predator LD stuff , or, if you prefer more traditional shafts , schuler-like jointed cues is IMHO far from all the best choice.

Personnally , being basically a balkline/straight rail player who likes pool, I've choosed a set of butts/shafts with "schuler joints" to make everything 100% compatible : i got 4 butts (in one piece of BEM) of different weights and lengh (71cm , 73cm and 76cm) , and a bunch of shafts with various lenght, taper & tip diameter, including pro-taper pool shafts , break shaft, straight rail shafts, 3c shafts , laminated 3C shafts, a snooker shaft ... but basically , with 2 butts (73cm and 76cm) only , i can play everything, thanks to the schuler joint & the very large choice of shafts tapers avaible. (except pyramid (russian billard)) .

There is Stany , a famous belgian cuemaker specialized in such versatile custom equipement, feel free to speak to Steve Andersen (zensteve on AZ) about his stuff , he's his US reseller .

Layani cues can do the job too. Thierry makes good carom shafts & pool shafts, including 314² , for his proprietary conical joint.

 

[Dean_H]

Nobody told me the stuff I am going to try to explain to you, I had to figure it out

Nobody told me the stuff I am going to try to explain to you, I had to figure it out on my own.

First subject will be tip diameter. There are more than two different carom tapers, but I have only played with two personally so I will be only be talking about these two. Question: does 1mm difference on tip size between 11mm and 12mm feel different? The answer is yes, a shaft with an 11mm surprisingly so even if both tip diameters use the same taper, and same shaft length. The size of the shaft is different on a shaft with a 12mm, more meat, then a 11mm. In general an 11mm tip is preferred if you play the small games. Why would someone want to play with a smaller tip? In the small games compared to Three cushion your desired effect on the balls is different. A smaller tip will have a more immediate/controlled, but less pronounced effect ( on both cue ball and first object ball). The bigger 12mm tip will have a little delayed/ but more pronounced effect. When I say pronounced I mean that a bigger tip will usually put more spin on the ball, and the spin will stay on the ball longer.

What I am trying to point out to you is that you should try as many different cue tapers, shafts, and tip sizes as you possibly can before committing to a carom cue. Many variations that feel different and have differing effects on the cueball.

Since you and I both Live in Los Angeles I suggest going to the Burbank Elks lodge because most of the players there own their own carom cues, and there will be cues of differing manufacture, shaft taper, shaft length, and tip size.

 

[iralee]

Thank you, Ira. I am taking a look at your site and the Molinaris now.

As I'm in LA, I won't be able to make the expo. Maybe if there's ever one on the West coast?

As to the specs on billiard cues, they seem to differ in some major ways.

1. Joint - wood screw seems to be most preferred. Why is this? What other joint types are typical for carom?

2. Tip diameter - I see them all the way down to a very narrow 11mm, and up to 12mm or so. Since the balls are bigger in carom, why are the tips smaller? Does medium vs. soft matter?

3. Weight - pool cues run 18-21oz., but I see billiard cues in the 16-19oz range. Why are they lighter?

4. Taper - I love the pro taper (consistent diameter for 18" before widening), but I see lots of billiards shafts are European taper, so they widen all the way from the tip up. Why?

Is there anything major I'm missing?

Overall, has anyone written a "how to select a carom cue" article?

1. Wood joint cues used to be an ideal, however they are not as durable. Joint technology has improved over the years. They last long, transfer power well, and are consistent.

2. 11 to 12 mm is the avg preference. Different taper than pool, obviously - starts out small and widens up quickly. Carom shafts need to have a bit more spine for consistently striking the heavier balls. Hard tips may miscue too easily and not grab the ball enough, Soft tips mushroom easily, Med is a good balance. Note: S/M/H mean different things across different brand tips (Moori/Kamui/etc).

3. 3c requires many strokes where you need to really move the cue fast. Too heavy a cue does not make this easier. 16 is uncommon for 3 cushion, but not unheard of. 17.5-19 oz seems to be the preferred weight to have the most power and control. 20+oz is considered too heavy for most.

4. Most players feel that the "pro-taper" is too flexible for heavier carom balls. Strokes with much sidespin create a lot of lateral forces. In 3c, you have to use many fast, extreme english shots.

My opinion is that you should go with the cue that performs the best (i.e. consistent deflection and good power). If you know how to measure deflection objectively, that will help you properly know this. Different cue makes have very different deflection characteristics. If a shaft has too much deflection, then aiming with hard with english is a real challenge.

-Ira

 

[Raul Newman]

You guys are fantastic. That is a TON of info, but THANK YOU for being so granular with it, so that I can use what I need!

I am only looking to use the cue for 3C. I may have to go with a pro taper, just because I'm so used to pool cues that I don't know if I can adjust to the conical taper. I'm assuming that means more deflection, so that means a LD pro-taper might be best for me (though I tend to be a purist, so it'll be hard not to play with regular old wood). I'm going to go for 12mm, on the longer side, unwrapped, and still not sure on the joint. Ideally I'd get a butt I can use for a 3C shaft and a pool shaft at a later date.

I love the idea of a Longoni (many of the local 3C players I respect play with one). But I am by no means sold. I guess I need to find a place that will let me try out a few.

 

[Dean_H]

Hi again I just wanted to point out that there is a Weekly friday tournament at "Hard Times Billiards" in the city of Bellflower that is for C level three cushion players, and is Handicapped. I a not a serious 3 cushion player but the times I have entered the tournament I have had a lot of fun. I have met players who were new to the game and have watched them improve. There are also players who are better then me and I get to ask them Questions. If you get there early there is a man named George Aeronek who teaches 3 cushion. The tournament costs 5 dollars to enter plus a 5 dollar greens fee, so ten dollars in total. The people who run the tournament let the players practice for free before the tournement begins. The tournament usually gets started at seven and ends usually an hour or two after midnight. The tournament is Double elemination so a player is guaranteed to play in two matches at least. Everyone is pretty well behaved at the tournament and does not have a cut throat vibe.

 

[Raul Newman]

That's awesome, Dean -- I have played twice at Million Dollar in NoHo, and it's $20. I have won a grand total of one match so far (it's single elim).

The one at House of Billiards in Santa Monica is no longer going (lack of interest -- they only have 2 tables), so it's nice to have another option, even if they're both on Friday

 

[mazin shooni]

Mr Newman,
Since your in the LA area you can stop in Burbank CA where Tiger products are to try one of the best carom cues in the market- also the best price in the US market- or feel free to go to my website at www.amazinbilliards.com

Mazin Shooni

 

[Black-Balled]

You guys are fantastic. That is a TON of info, but THANK YOU for being so granular with it, so that I can use what I need!

I am only looking to use the cue for 3C. I may have to go with a pro taper, just because I'm so used to pool cues that I don't know if I can adjust to the conical taper...

Don't waste your $ on a pro (pool) tapered shaft for 3c. It is like running in flip flops...yeah, it can be done, but why would you do it?

I am a pool player who enjoys beating the rails on a billiard table as often as possible and it was odd to play with a more conical taper (than the pro taper pool shafts), but it is absolutely necessary and I did quickly grow comfortable with it.

 

[Black-Balled]

Mr Newman,
Since your in the LA area you can stop in Burbank CA where Tiger products are to try one of the best carom cues in the market- also the best price in the US market- or feel free to go to my website at www.amazinbilliards.com

Mazin Shooni

And that is great advice...and evidence as to why this is the best place on the i-web.

Raul, I present to you the 3rd ranked pro billiard player in the USA...:clapping::bow-down::wave2:

 

[jeh_ar21]

try Noel Mendoza. 13 years of experience making schuler cue. below is his website.
http://www.mendozacues.com/

 

[kilby]

carom vs pool cue

I can offer you some options as well as explanations regarding the difference. Unlike some others here, I am a cuemaker, not a sales rep. www.caromcues.com