vincett
i have not read too much of your posts as they are way too long for me
my best advice to you is
FIND AN INSRTUCTOR
just my opinion and trying to save you alot of time
Contact Point Aiming Illusion
- Thread starter Mikjary
- Start date
i have not read too much of your posts as they are way too long for me
my best advice to you is
FIND AN INSRTUCTOR
just my opinion and trying to save you alot of time
i dont know what you mean by the "Aiming Sysytem"
also i am recommending being seen in person by an instructor
you dont know what you dont know and an educated eye not your own can see things you dont and should know how to go about fixing things
dquarasr
Registered
I'm going to assume that you understand squirt, swerve, and throw. If not, read up on these topics. See Billiards University resource pages. SO MUCH great material. https://billiards.colostate.edu/
Reading through (some of!) your novels, I have two diametrically opposed gut reactions.
1) You are WAY overanalyzing. (Disclaimer: I am a C+ player on good days.) I use ghost ball exclusively. Sometimes, when I find myself "over-aiming" and struggling, I will stand behind a shot and do what I call "see it, shoot it." I'll simply look at the shot, get down, trust my alignment, and shoot it. It removes the doubt that sometimes creeps in, and doubt can often sabotage a good stroke. And it usually results in balls flying in pockets.
There is an aiming aid, that may help you. It helps "see" the ghost ball. Perhaps this will be your "Aha!".
2) You really do need an aiming system. There are many, including fractional, Poolology, CTE, and others. You might want to mine this sub-forum and see if any of them might suit you. But first, your fundamentals need to be strong because you won't know if you're missing because of aim or not.
In either of these two reactions, as others have stated, I think you'd really benefit from in-person coaching; second best would be virtual coaching via cameras and the internet. You would benefit from live discussions with a person, rather than trying to understand ideas via the written word here.
Reading through (some of!) your novels, I have two diametrically opposed gut reactions.
1) You are WAY overanalyzing. (Disclaimer: I am a C+ player on good days.) I use ghost ball exclusively. Sometimes, when I find myself "over-aiming" and struggling, I will stand behind a shot and do what I call "see it, shoot it." I'll simply look at the shot, get down, trust my alignment, and shoot it. It removes the doubt that sometimes creeps in, and doubt can often sabotage a good stroke. And it usually results in balls flying in pockets.
There is an aiming aid, that may help you. It helps "see" the ghost ball. Perhaps this will be your "Aha!".
2) You really do need an aiming system. There are many, including fractional, Poolology, CTE, and others. You might want to mine this sub-forum and see if any of them might suit you. But first, your fundamentals need to be strong because you won't know if you're missing because of aim or not.
In either of these two reactions, as others have stated, I think you'd really benefit from in-person coaching; second best would be virtual coaching via cameras and the internet. You would benefit from live discussions with a person, rather than trying to understand ideas via the written word here.
snookered_again
Well-known member
sure insruction helps..
this video makes some good points that are related.
you can look up "half ball shots" and practice them..
you can put a ball in the center of the table, try to cut it in the side pocket, challenge yourself to see just how fine you can cut the ball.. who cares what degree that is, youll see the point where it becomes difficult or unreliable or a miss is likely then make your own judgements..
try to get down and keep your cue as flat to the table as you can so you can see it in your view as you shoot rather than just relying on "instincts"
if particular shots seem to trouble you, set that shot up and repeat it, you'll find that after 30 shots you already improved, because you are more perceptive when repeating a task than when just shooting random balls.
in this way you can make slight corrections but the shot being the same each time allows you to learn a bit faster because you are applying adjustments to the last shot and actually improving rather than focussing upon a totally different shot you are doing more perception and repetition to fine tune yourself..
stroke is very important so there is a lot to learn and practice just about the stroke alone, without even considering aiming,, until you have a reliable stroke it is not going to come together as well as it will after you develop a good stroke, for example if your cue is off on some angle then you may sink balls just not reliably...
try lining up a straight shot down a rail,, before you shoot, stop dont move, look down, Now is your cue actually straight to the rail or at some angle ? .. so then think to yourself how could I hope to sink the ball if the cue is not parallel to the rail . It's just a little way to check yourself..
personally I find long hours practice can be super boring so I just do a little at ta time, 2 hours of practice gets boring then I'd rather put down the tech and shoot and have some fun.
Ivebene trying to learn how to backspin more controllably so Ill line up a bunch of balls down the middle. put my CB where I like and pocket one and try to backspin to gain shape on the next and the next.. Then I go to the other side and shoot them all back.. Its just so Im not emptying pockets so much.. after a half hour of that I can spin them better, more controllably, sure I need more practice but I found that excercise quite helpful and now when I want to backspin a ball 3 inches or a foot or more or steer it so it backspiins in different directions, I just have a bit better handle on the technique.. in snooker its sometimes very handy to be able to duck behind a ball and where the CB goes , who cares so long as the opponent is hooked sometimes thats the main objective ;-)
another one is to set up a ball with a reasonable cut, then look where the CB goes,, try a few and see if you can do it consistently, next try a little left or a little right , try to learn how the applied spin will afect the cue ball direction after it leaves the object ball and hits a rail, the spin will change the final destination of the CB a lot.. you need that to be able to place your CB where you want for your next shot..
on every shot try to predict where te CB will go , what direction? where do I want it ? how hard? what is my next ball? it wont always work out but just making those perceptions means a lot.
after each shot question what went wrong, did I cut it too thin, was it too hard or too soft to reach the target position I imagined.. as you go if you think of those thinngs you will improve. try to forget the frustration of missing a shot and instead focus on the - why?
some randomness is expected. a good pool player that can run balls is just good at placing his cue ball and knows how to get it where he predicts.. it takes prcatice, have fun..
hiring an instructor is a thing that depends on financial decisions.. its great, but if you can just find a good player and say you'll pay the table time because you want to learn , many will help..
I maintain that i love loosing because it means I'm being challenged and that I'm playing with people that are more skilled than I am which generally means Im learning.. so don't sweat the numbers.. just focus on the shot, not the game. keep your smile on , it helps because if you are nervous worried or have 27 things in your head at once its just stressful and that will make you frustrated.. youll shoot better if you are relaxed and able to focus on where the CB is going and why it din't make it quite where you predicted..
what you can do sometime in very casual play , point to the spot the CB is going to end up, do it out loud , then after think about what you could have improved to get it closer to where you pointed.. . If you have a more experienced player he/she can play in with a little advice..
Some may try to charge you to teach, I think you can learn a lot just by making friends with good players, often if you are trying others want to help and don't expect money for it.
try a community center where lots of elderly play some of those guys really have it down, some have many hours behind the cue despite being a bit shaky or slow moving and they tend to also be patient and well manored.
a lot of those guys are happy to pass on some skills and won't try to rake you for money.. asking for lessons and such can be an easy way to get sharked out of money so I wouldn't gamble, but that's me.. if you hire an authorized instructor who is actually an instructor , thats a choice,, it's not necessarily a bad thing if you can aford that.
this video makes some good points that are related.
you can look up "half ball shots" and practice them..
you can put a ball in the center of the table, try to cut it in the side pocket, challenge yourself to see just how fine you can cut the ball.. who cares what degree that is, youll see the point where it becomes difficult or unreliable or a miss is likely then make your own judgements..
try to get down and keep your cue as flat to the table as you can so you can see it in your view as you shoot rather than just relying on "instincts"
if particular shots seem to trouble you, set that shot up and repeat it, you'll find that after 30 shots you already improved, because you are more perceptive when repeating a task than when just shooting random balls.
in this way you can make slight corrections but the shot being the same each time allows you to learn a bit faster because you are applying adjustments to the last shot and actually improving rather than focussing upon a totally different shot you are doing more perception and repetition to fine tune yourself..
stroke is very important so there is a lot to learn and practice just about the stroke alone, without even considering aiming,, until you have a reliable stroke it is not going to come together as well as it will after you develop a good stroke, for example if your cue is off on some angle then you may sink balls just not reliably...
try lining up a straight shot down a rail,, before you shoot, stop dont move, look down, Now is your cue actually straight to the rail or at some angle ? .. so then think to yourself how could I hope to sink the ball if the cue is not parallel to the rail . It's just a little way to check yourself..
personally I find long hours practice can be super boring so I just do a little at ta time, 2 hours of practice gets boring then I'd rather put down the tech and shoot and have some fun.
Ivebene trying to learn how to backspin more controllably so Ill line up a bunch of balls down the middle. put my CB where I like and pocket one and try to backspin to gain shape on the next and the next.. Then I go to the other side and shoot them all back.. Its just so Im not emptying pockets so much.. after a half hour of that I can spin them better, more controllably, sure I need more practice but I found that excercise quite helpful and now when I want to backspin a ball 3 inches or a foot or more or steer it so it backspiins in different directions, I just have a bit better handle on the technique.. in snooker its sometimes very handy to be able to duck behind a ball and where the CB goes , who cares so long as the opponent is hooked sometimes thats the main objective ;-)
another one is to set up a ball with a reasonable cut, then look where the CB goes,, try a few and see if you can do it consistently, next try a little left or a little right , try to learn how the applied spin will afect the cue ball direction after it leaves the object ball and hits a rail, the spin will change the final destination of the CB a lot.. you need that to be able to place your CB where you want for your next shot..
on every shot try to predict where te CB will go , what direction? where do I want it ? how hard? what is my next ball? it wont always work out but just making those perceptions means a lot.
after each shot question what went wrong, did I cut it too thin, was it too hard or too soft to reach the target position I imagined.. as you go if you think of those thinngs you will improve. try to forget the frustration of missing a shot and instead focus on the - why?
some randomness is expected. a good pool player that can run balls is just good at placing his cue ball and knows how to get it where he predicts.. it takes prcatice, have fun..
hiring an instructor is a thing that depends on financial decisions.. its great, but if you can just find a good player and say you'll pay the table time because you want to learn , many will help..
I maintain that i love loosing because it means I'm being challenged and that I'm playing with people that are more skilled than I am which generally means Im learning.. so don't sweat the numbers.. just focus on the shot, not the game. keep your smile on , it helps because if you are nervous worried or have 27 things in your head at once its just stressful and that will make you frustrated.. youll shoot better if you are relaxed and able to focus on where the CB is going and why it din't make it quite where you predicted..
what you can do sometime in very casual play , point to the spot the CB is going to end up, do it out loud , then after think about what you could have improved to get it closer to where you pointed.. . If you have a more experienced player he/she can play in with a little advice..
Some may try to charge you to teach, I think you can learn a lot just by making friends with good players, often if you are trying others want to help and don't expect money for it.
try a community center where lots of elderly play some of those guys really have it down, some have many hours behind the cue despite being a bit shaky or slow moving and they tend to also be patient and well manored.
a lot of those guys are happy to pass on some skills and won't try to rake you for money.. asking for lessons and such can be an easy way to get sharked out of money so I wouldn't gamble, but that's me.. if you hire an authorized instructor who is actually an instructor , thats a choice,, it's not necessarily a bad thing if you can aford that.
Last edited:
Same advice: if you want people to read your posts, make them lots shorter.
pj
chgo
A spot shot is 30 degrees. Get and read Robert Byrne's Standard Book of Pool and Billiards for an explanation of that and many other parts of the game. He also has some good practice shots in there. If you are in the US, you can get a copy for less than $10 delivered to your door.
I think you need to find someone to help you in person.
My problem with all of this, is again, not my stroke. People keep telling me that I should aim with my cue-stick
In my opinion, this is where it is wrong. It can only be very straight and dead on with 0 degree hit. Even a 30 degree, the cue is literally not aiming at the contact point. It point toward the edge of the object ball.
So, what exactly are you telling me to aim with ?
If I aim with my cue stick, I can cut a 30 degree with either side English just fine and not center ball of the cueball
I don’t argue that stroke is not important. But aiming is more important. Knowing where to aim and why, what, how. Again, just like driving, you know to turn your steering or hand bar, but do you know exactly where is to look at ?
I don’t, is it the contact point ? Is it the space beside it ? As long as I get those mixed up. My stroke can’t be straight.
What about applying English + cutting together and driving the cueball ? Where do you aim at ? It can’t be your stick is it ? It can’t also be the CP
Just as long as I know exactly what I am
Aiming at, I can deliver it. Even along the 30 degree cuts, they are different if they happen along the Longest Rails
So, please, assume that my stroke delivery is “perfect.” What is the aiming system here ? Because ghost ball with “Dead center” system can only work so much
As long as there is side spin on the cueball, None can give a specific answer such as this video
But I do agree with his statement that a 30 degree cut or 1/2 ball hit , dead center (straight) , and 45 degree should be a references with no spin and using ghost ball system. That was what I am trying to say previously. I don’t even know how we are talking about stroke delivery here, though it is important. But the thread is about aiming system isn’t it ?
I saw a YouTube video a few years back where a snooker instructor advocated a technique where when you're down on the shot, imagine the cue ball is attached to your tip and you plan to slide it forward to knock in the object ball, like shuffle board. It trains your mind to track the CB to the correct collision point. All the talk of contact points, ferrules, edges, shadows, ghost balls, etc. can over complicate your conscious mind. I will admit to aiming shots less than 10 or so degrees with the inside edge or center (depending on the angle) of my ferrule with great consistency...but the shuffle board visualization works very well for thinner cuts.
yes!!! Exactly this!!! Any 10-15 degree variations, and there need to be English to compensate. This is exactly why I am here and the Op question. Over cutting and under cutting will happen with “ghost ball system”
dquarasr
Registered
Glad to see we are homing in on getting you your answers in terms you can absorb.
1) When I use the ghost ball, I don't look at the CB/OB contact point. If I do, I typically steer the CB where I am looking, and it usually hits thick. On cuts greater than 1/2 ball hit, the center of the CB is "outside" the boundaries of the OB.
I look at the center of the imaginary ghost ball. It's not that difficult to do. It's what the aiming tool I posted a link to above in post #64 helps imagine.
2) Also, please explain the bolded portion of your post. Why do you need English to compensate? Throw? Throw can be compensated for with aim; it is not necessary to adjust with outside spin. (And throw is usually highest in the 30 to 45 degree cut angle.)
1/ ghost ball center is smaller the longer the rails. For example where your CB is at 8 diamonds and the 8 ball is at 2 diamonds all the way up top. This distance is only reliable upon specific angles such as 30-35, or 60-65 for ghost ball system
2/ anytime it happens this way, there will be English and side spin to compensate. Especially if both the CB is at 7.5 diamonds, the OB is 7 diamonds, and you want to aim the OB toward the Top corner pocket. Even just a slight 5 degree differences (center reference line is at 0.25 Diamond) . Will have you losing that money shot. Because that far distances, the margin of errors is no longer 1/2 a ball in sizes
Something like this
Last edited:
boogieman
It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that ping.
Old post but I'll play.
I have very good spatial awareness and I just know what part of the CB to rub on the OB. You can
Now if you say this is HAMB, it's not, thought HAMB has gradually honed the ability greatly.
boogieman
It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that ping.
Theme music for this post:
I'll give you a hint, if you're focused on the OB, there will be 2 cueballs, like you were looking cross eyed at something. It's because they are before your focal point. Use them like a rear rifle sight. Hold your cue vertically and look through it at the table and you'll see the same thing. Once the OB is centered in the dual cues, it's straight in line. Remember those old machinists and inspectors that could eyeball a scale down to a gnat's ass? Visual tricks involving both eyes. You gotta look at it for a bit sometimes.
Now if you're focusing on the CB last, the OB becomes doubled.
Move your eyes until both are not doubled. That is straight and proper focus for a majority of shots. You're not really focusing intently on either ball, just a flowing gaze upon them both at the same time. This might require stance changes, grip, bridge, etc. Don't despair though because once you know this gaze the game becomes easier. You see both the CB and the OB at the same time in real time. It's easy to learn by HAMB once you see at the entire sight picture. The gaze only feels right when it is right. If it's not feeling right or you're wondering at two different things, get the gaze and only then get down on the shot.
Get a good look at it and stay down and not just watch, but SEE what the balls did.
If you ever catch your eyes going back and forth and wondering between 2 shots/aimpoints/spin/speed/the waitress that just walked in front of you so the home favorite can win/etc., get up and reset. You're likely not focusing correctly, be it with your eyes or mental focus. You're doubting and not committing. If you don't reset you end up badly hitting either one of the choices or somewhere in the middle of them. Once you're down, you're committed. Once you're down you are in perform mode, not thinking mode. Breath out and execute the shot.
If it's legit a shot not in your repertoire then play a safe, or if no stakes on the line like in practice, shoot that shot and SEE/FEEL it. It's the only way to get better. Sometimes you might be wildly off but as long as you were committed you can't beat yourself up, you didn't miss, you just more closely learned that shot. Next time you might surprise yourself and just make it. By committing you actually see what you meant to do and how it relates to reality, not guessing "what just happened"?
I have no idea if this relates to your particulars but it's something I had to work through, especially the bottom part. It only looks right when it is right. If it looks funny you've likely addressed the ball incorrectly. Trust your gut feeling and walk around the table or something until you have a better feeling about the shot. Pool is 90% mental and sometimes it takes a second to clear your head.
dquarasr
Registered
Huh?
Sorry, I don’t understand your thinking. I’m out.
Best wishes that you find what you need.
I showed you the picture. In this situation, if you use dead center and ghost ball aiming system, you either undercut it or over cutting it. The degree differences is about 5-10. You will have to compensate it with English. By this time, your “cue stick from center of your cueball will no longer aiming at the center of your ghost ball”. Hence the ghost ball system without compensation will not work
boogieman
It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that ping.
Aim to overcut or aim to undercut. You have to know how the balls will mesh, psychics included. Learn about CIT (commonly called throw by laymen) and practice it from various angles with various english. You can add (or cancel if you want to) throw on the OB with spin (playing the CIT purposefully). It's also how pros play every shot. They STROKE it. They know everything needed to properly stroke it. Accounting for throw (at various speeds and spins) often cheating the pocket with the throw on the OB to get better shape or make "impossible" cuts.
We're literally spinning marbles and that's the thing you have to understand. A system will get you close but a stroke will get you there. Most aiming systems don't account for CIT, friction, aka how dirty the balls are etc. You have to learn how that feels through practice.
Pool balls are spheres with friction and gyroscopic forces working on them. Study them by watching how they behave, by staying down after the shot and watching with a clear mind.
No aiming system shows you exactly where to aim the cue ball for more than a handful of cut angles. For instance, "fractional" aiming uses the major fractional divisions on the OB's "equator" as targets, but that's only 4 or 5 cut angles - you have to learn to recognize the alignments for angles in between by rote practice, using the few system alignments as "guideposts".
On the other hand, many (most?) players play with no aiming system, learning to recognize the CB/OB alignments/overlaps for all cut angles by rote practice/memorization (sometimes known as the "hit a million balls" method). Aiming systems don't eliminate the need for rote learning, but they can shorten the learning curve. Which one, if any, is best for you is a purely personal choice.
pj
chgo
Last edited: