Couple of interesting things about side spin

[ronscuba]

What results? What actual evidence is there aside from what some players think happens?

pj
chgo

Not every point of view has a thorough documented scientific experiment to support it.

My results, many friends results, many people in my pool hall results. Maybe it is all psychosomatic or maybe there is some physical explanation. A combination shaft thickness, tip size, tip shape, when in the hands of imperfect human beings, results in repeatable differences. Could be affects of closed bridge looseness, shaft shifting/offset when using english, contact point not where intended, etc..

Is it your opinion that a beginner player will pocket the same with a 13mm shaft with nickel shaped tip vs an 11mm shaft with dime tip ?

 

[ENGLISH!]

Can't argue with the geometry and science you list.

But there are repeatable results in reference to different tip shapes and tip sizes.

In the hands of a human being, a thinner shaft with a smaller tip will tend to spin more. Exactly why is up for debate, but it's hard to argue with the results.

Take 10 average league players. Let them shoot with a 13mm shaft nickel shaped tip vs an 11mm shaft dime shaped tip. What do you think the results would be ?

Is it possible the thinner shaft and smaller tip exposes stroke inaccuracies ?

I think it is rather rare to get the exact same radius on a smaller tip as with a larger one &/or maybe it is more difficult to keep the same radius on a smaller tip.

Theoretical & practical often do not yield the same results.

IMO, a player that is trying to hit center CB & misses that mark will get different results with a smaller shaft than with the larger one & especially if the smaller one has an intentional or 'accidental' smaller radius.

As you say, it is shown to be so in pool halls all over the Country & the World. Perhaps as you also say, there may be more than one reason as to why that is.

That is partly why CJ Wiley, I & others do not advocate trying to hit center ball as one's predominant shot. We are human beings & putting the center of the 3 mm contact area on the exact center line of the vertical axis of the CB consistently can be a rather daunting if not impossible task & accomplishment.

IF one plans for an off center hit & understands what will happen one can learn to play what becomes an enhanced game with less 'surprises'.

Best 2 You & All.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Is it your opinion that a beginner player will pocket the same with a 13mm shaft with nickel shaped tip vs an 11mm shaft with dime tip ?

Yes. On what would you base another opinion?

pj
chgo

 

[td873]

As understood it, the tip diameter shape is a function of shaft size (and not a discussion of which tip generates more english). A gigger shaft requries a flatter tip. But perhaps ths is an uninformed understanding on my part.

In my experience (with no real data to back this up) regardless of the tip/shaft ratio issue - and regardless of whether you shape your tip one way or another - it will ultimately conform to you and "take" the roundness that fits your style of play. I would suspect that most tips end up flatter than a nickel.

-td

 

[Patrick Johnson]

A gigger shaft requries a flatter tip. But perhaps ths is an uninformed understanding on my part.

It's a misunderstanding - the only limit on tip shape is that the circle you're shaping it to fit (for instance, a nickel or dime) has to be at least as wide as your shaft. A dime-sized circle is not as "flat" as a nickel-sized one, but it's plenty big enough for any common shaft: a dime is about 17mm wide and shafts only get as big as about 14mm.

pj
chgo

 

[FranCrimi]

The scale drawing below shows an overhead view of three cues hitting three cue balls at different offsets - cue moved 1/4", 1/2" and 3/4" to the left. Just for fun, it also compares where nickel and dime shaped tips contact the CB at those offsets, assuming the cue's centerline is offset the same amount.

I notice two interesting things:

1. These three very common tip offsets - often called 1, 2 & 3 (or 1/2, 1 and 1 1/2) "tips" - produce almost exactly 1/3, 2/3 and 3/3 of maximum sidespin (the red lines on the CB), which correspond to 1, 2 and 3 diamonds of cross-table angle change. I just find this correspondence remarkably convenient.

2. The difference in contact points for nickel and dime shaped tips (shown by the circles at the cues' tips and the lines connecting their centers with the CB's center) is almost nonexistent: 1/128" at 1/3 max sidespin, 1/64" at 2/3 max sidespin and less than 1/32" at maximum sidespin (true for nickel and dime tips of any width). So how true is it really that a dime shaped tip can produce noticeably more spin for the same tip offset?

Doing my part to use up these damned pixels...

pj
chgo

View attachment 53737

Have you examined this in terms of the path of the cb as well as tip contact points?

 

[336Robin]

Flat Tip

As it pertains to tip curvature I have made an observation of a really good one pocket player that uses a nearly flat tip. He leaves large dots of chalk on the cue ball when he plays. What is most impressive about him is his cue ball control. I don't believe he suffers a disadvantage of not being able to get enough spin, if he has a deficit it might actually work out in his favor.

 

[Jal]

Theoretical & practical often do not yield the same results.

Only when the practical is wrong. :smile:

That is partly why CJ Wiley, I & others do not advocate trying to hit center ball as one's predominant shot. We are human beings & putting the center of the 3 mm contact area on the exact center line of the vertical axis of the CB consistently can be a rather daunting if not impossible task & accomplishment.

Rick, it's just as easy or hard to hit any point on the cueball (more or less). Apparently you believe that intentional english is more forgiving of the same stroke errors. What is your justification for this belief?

IF one plans for an off center hit & understands what will happen one can learn to play what becomes an enhanced game with less 'surprises'.

Even if it were true that TOI did reduce the effects of a wavering stroke, using it introduces more variables that have to be accounted for while estimating "what will happen."

Jim

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Have you examined this in terms of the path of the cb as well as tip contact points?

I've tested the principle that thirds of maximum side spin correspond with diamonds of cross-table angle change (I think we agreed on this approximation in another thread not too long ago).

I haven't tested to see that the tip/ball contact points for those shape tips and those size offsets are right on thirds of maximum side spin, but I trust the geometry for that.

pj
chgo

 

[3kushn]

I think the small tip makes it easier to see where the tip contact will be, making it more comfortable for some players to get the tip out further than with a larger tip dia, which gives the illusion that a smaller tip creates more spin. Its nonsense. Just another one of the un-intuitive things with this game.

I had a coach who professed a 13mm tip for 3-Cushion. Let me tell you. He could put incredible amount of spin on a CB. Unbelievable and really fun to see some of the action.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

I think the small tip makes it easier to see where the tip contact will be, making it more comfortable for some players to get the tip out further than with a larger tip dia, which gives the illusion that a smaller tip creates more spin.

I think so too.

pj
chgo

 

[FranCrimi]

I've tested the principle that thirds of maximum side spin correspond with diamonds of cross-table angle change (I think we agreed on this approximation in another thread not too long ago).

I haven't tested to see that the tip/ball contact points for those shape tips and those size offsets are right on thirds of maximum side spin, but I trust the geometry for that.

pj
chgo

Even though the outcome may be predictable, I think you should also expand your observations to include actual shots with nickel and dime at various points on the cb.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Even though the outcome may be predictable, I think you should also expand your observations to include actual shots with nickel and dime at various points on the cb.

Yes, ma'am.

I do agree with you, and might even do it sometime.

pj
chgo

 

[FranCrimi]

Yes, ma'am.

I do agree with you, and might even do it sometime.

pj
chgo

LOL... You may come across something that could explain why so many players feel they get different results with nickel vs. dime --- And while you're at it, you may want to try using different side spin approaches --- like parallel and pivot.

 

[Bank it]

... unless somebody uses a literal interpretation of "tips of english." Half a large-diameter tip is larger than half a small-diameter tip. Also, a smaller-diameter shaft will typically have less endmass and produce slightly less squirt (CB deflection). That can also have a small effect on how much sidespin is applied for a given tip offset.



For those interested, more info and illustrations related to these topics can be found here:



"tips" of english



tip size and shape effects



getting more spin with an LD shaft



Enjoy,

Dave

I'd like your opinion on whether a nickel shape perhaps stays in contact with the cue ball longer due to its shape more so than a dime shape & perhaps thereby impart more English with the same stroke

 

[dr_dave]

For those interested, more info and illustrations related to these topics can be found here:

"tips" of english

tip size and shape effects

getting more spin with an LD shaft

I'd like your opinion on whether a nickel shape perhaps stays in contact with the cue ball longer due to its shape more so than a dime shape & perhaps thereby impart more English with the same stroke

Comparing tips of the same hardness, I wouldn't expect a nickel shape to result in more (or less) contact time than a dime shape. And even if there were differences in contact time, they would be on the order of ten-thousandths of seconds (i.e., less than 0.001 seconds). Also, these contact-time differences would likely have no impact on the amount of spin produced. For more info, see:

cue tip contact time

Only tip hardness and shot speed have effects (albeit small) on tip contact time; and even then, the effects on the amount of spin that can be produced are insignificant (i.e., not noticeable or of practical value). For more info, see:

cue tip hardness effects

Enjoy,
Dave

 

[Bank it]

Comparing tips of the same hardness, I wouldn't expect a nickel shape to result in more (or less) contact time than a dime shape. And even if there were differences in contact time, they would be on the order of ten-thousandths of seconds (i.e., less than 0.001 seconds). Also, these contact-time differences would likely have no impact on the amount of spin produced. For more info, see:



cue tip contact time



Only tip hardness and shot speed have effects (albeit small) on tip contact time; and even then, the effects of the amount of spin that can be produced are minimal (if even noticeable). For more info, see:



cue tip hardness effects



Enjoy,

Dave

Thanks for taking the time to respond, it's appreciated. This confirms my suspicions on the subject.

 

[ENGLISH!]

Only when the practical is wrong. :smile:

Rick, it's just as easy or hard to hit any point on the cueball (more or less). Apparently you believe that intentional english is more forgiving of the same stroke errors. What is your justification for this belief?

Even if it were true that TOI did reduce the effects of a wavering stroke, using it introduces more variables that have to be accounted for while estimating "what will happen."

Jim

Hi Jim,

It's all been 'discussed' before.

If one is 'afraid' of taking on subconsciously learning what you call the additional variables then one will play & continue to play by attempting to hit center ball as their predominant method.

I've only been playing one pocket for about 6 months & almost never use TOI... But I am playing using many many off center hits for the use of the spin just as I always have.

The reason I do not use TOI is because of the lack of speed for most shots & it is difficult for the subconscious to calibrate getting the proper amount of squirt if one is only going to use it occasionally.

That's sort of how it is with english. If one is only going to use it occasionally then it is much much more difficult to become proficient with it's use.

But... if one's average unintended deviation off of a center strike of the ball is 3 mm & one plans for a 5 mm offset hit on the cue ball & misses at their their average unintended deviation then one is still getting at least some of or more than the squirt or spin for which they planned.

If one targets the proper associated side of the pocket then one has coordinated a plan for the intended off center hit.

If the same individual attempts to hit center ball & misses at their average unintended deviation they will get squirt & spin that can not be placed into a plan as they will NOT know to what side of center ball the miss will be.

So no. I am not saying that intentionally hitting off center necessarily improves one's stroke accuracy.

But... the added focus of how much offset to hit & with the 'target' being somewhat less defined along with the associated subconscious feedback that is then possible, improvement of one's stroke might actually be a peripheral benefit.

One can keep squirt & spin as a nemesis or one can choose to embrace them & make them their friend & have them as tools for which to play the game at an enhanced level.

Best Wishes to You & Yours...

& ALL.

PS There are those that are not afraid of 'feel' & our subconscious that play like athletes & there are those that are afraid of such & must intellectually be 'in control' at all times & will play much more mechanically. (BHE vs Parallel english) To me... the action & art of playing requires turning over 'control' to another aspect of ourselves other than our intellect. For some that is nearly impossible to do. Those will play more mechanically & with less Art in my opinion. They call Efren 'The Magician'. Well Magic is in the realm of Art. Efren was/is an artist. I doubt he knows one scientific principle that he did not 'learn' subconsciously from the table & the balls & not from ANY outside source... or at least he did in his Hey Day.

 

[ENGLISH!]

I think the small tip makes it easier to see where the tip contact will be, making it more comfortable for some players to get the tip out further than with a larger tip dia, which gives the illusion that a smaller tip creates more spin. Its nonsense. Just another one of the un-intuitive things with this game.

I had a coach who professed a 13mm tip for 3-Cushion. Let me tell you. He could put incredible amount of spin on a CB. Unbelievable and really fun to see some of the action.

Good Morning,

It depends if one 'aims' the offset with the center line of the shaft or...

Picture a flat tip & the edge. Picture hitting the cue ball with the edge of the tip.

One can very accurately place that edge where one wants to contact the ball, especially for all english on the low side of the ball & rather well for the others IF one has a low head positions. If one's head is high, perhaps not so well.

I think too many do NOT realize that when one goes off center it is no longer the center of the tip that will be making contact.

If one rarely if ever uses english then there is much that will not become second nature.

 

[ENGLISH!]

LOL... You may come across something that could explain why so many players feel they get different results with nickel vs. dime --- And while you're at it, you may want to try using different side spin approaches --- like parallel and pivot.

Good point Fran.

I know what you mean.

But some say that there is no such thing as parallel english.

And depending on how a few things are defined that might be true.

But it depends on what one refers the word 'parallel' to, as in parallel to what?

Some make very definitive statements but without the qualify statements necessary to make what is said 'true' & that practice often can & does lead to misleading 'conclusions' or interpretations.

As you taught me, you always seem to keep the larger membership in mind so as to try to NOT be misleading. Some seem to often forget about that audience & how easily misunderstandings and bad 'conclusions' can be formed. In trying to 'educate' an individual or a few they fail to see the damage that might be done to some of the wider audience.

Best Wishes to You & Yours during this Holiday Season...

& to All... in other words Merry Christmas.