CTE Aiming Video

[Colin Colenso]

Actually, neither of these statements is correct. Backhand english can't correct for swerve because swerve varies with every shot; it can only correct for squirt, and then only if your shaft's pivot point is at your bridge.

But squirt never happens without swerve, so BHE pretty much never works exactly. It's another "approximation system" like CTE aiming (and most other aiming systems) - it gets you in the ballpark, but you have to finish on your own.

pj
chgo

Patrick,
That's true, in a sense. The BHE system, as known does not account for swerve. There is an adjustement system which I've seen mentioned originating from Efren. It is simplistic in that it says avoid slow IE and aim 1/6th inch thicker when using OE.

These are ok guidelines but far from comprehensive. There are exceptions and much of the time this adjustment method is a matter of near enough good enough, unless you get a feel for varying this adjustment.

This adjustment method says nothing about distance which is crucial. The effective pivot point can vary by 6 inches between a close and a distance shot.

This thread here discusses the effective pivot adjustment system I developed for those interested. http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=116815

I figured on calling my method the Aim, Pivot, Throw System, to differentiate it from BHE, though it is an addition to that system. I think BHE is slightly misleading anyway, because many people assume it is a type of english, rather than an aiming system for using english.

Note also that any adjustment system needs to take into account throw. I discuss this a little in this post where I include one of the throw maps that I use to determing throw when applying BHE in my system:
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showpost.php?p=1319093&postcount=21

Colin

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Colin:
There's no appreciable english on Busta's CB here.

We disagree on that. No worries, though.

pj
chgo

 

[Colin Colenso]

We disagree on that. No worries, though.

pj
chgo

Fine PJ,
But can you expand? I've watched the shot half a dozen times and at most, the CB has a touch of sidespin. Hardly enough to change the degree of throw significantly. Are you seeing something that I cant see?

If you think that touch of sidespin is significant, then say so.

I wonder if it's convenient sometimes to make brief contentless replies.

Colin

 

[SpiderWebComm]

Bustamante performs a l2r cue pivot with the cue parallel to the CTEL on that shot. It is what it is. If someone doesn't think so, they just don't know they don't know. I don't fault anyone for that.

Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to all of the aiming gestapo. I love you guys...seriously.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Fine PJ,
But can you expand? I've watched the shot half a dozen times and at most, the CB has a touch of sidespin. Hardly enough to change the degree of throw significantly. Are you seeing something that I cant see?

If you think that touch of sidespin is significant, then say so.

I thought I did - when you said "there's no appreciable english" and I said "we disagree on that". It looks to me like Bustamante clearly throws the OB with a little (yet significant) outside english. More to the point, it looks to me like his cue movement is fully explained by that.

I wonder if it's convenient sometimes to make brief contentless replies.

I guess content is in the eye of the beholder.

pj
chgo

 

[CaptiveBred]

If you think that touch of sidespin is significant, then say so.


Colin

I know it does... for my stroke and cue, at least. It is pretty easy to setup a shot to show that a slight amount of side spin will send the OB off its line. A half a tip will do it. The fuller you hit the ball the greater the effect. And the longer the shot the greater the effect.

Just set up a shot aiming straight at a diamond. Hit it with a slow/medium speed a half tip off and see where it goes... It does not take much spin at all to alter the path.

Well, at least on dirty equiptment like mine... and again, it may be dependent on stroke, tip, humidity, etc.. I'm no expert but I do know a little spin can equate to some predictable throw... especially when hitting the OB damn near center.

 

[Flex]

Thanks Eric. If wish we had more stuff like this.

It would also nice to show and explain when and how you and others make small adjustments for all of the "in-between" shots.

Again, great job!
Dave

Ah, but that's the Holy Grail of the CTE systems...

The adjustments!!

BTW, I've developed a few of these systems for my own use, but don't share them. Too complicated to try to explain how to come up with a workable angle using the cue stick to estimate the angle, then, based upon that estimation to do the preliminary aiming and then to pivot to center with a bridge length that varies depending on the distance of the cue ball to the object ball, and then once that is dialed in, to make adjustments for the amount of throw that will likely occur depending on the kind or quality of pure center ball stroke that is applied. Way too difficult.

What I can tell you is that it does work, at least for me, for a surprising number of shots. When dealing with very critical, exacting shots, well, there are plenty of things to go wrong, and the ball doesn't always pot, at least not for me. When that happens, I'll usually either consign the miss to an estimation error, or more likely, something funky happening with my stroke.

And also BTW, I'm not a masochist and don't intend on posting how I've learned how to do all this, but a word to the wise should be sufficient: Spider gave me the ideas when he posted some stuff on here, and I ran with it, and played around with it, and have found out how to make it work.

Sharing it? Not a chance. At least not on here. If a friend of mine wants ideas about how to make it work for himself, I'm more than happy to oblige.

In the meantime, for all those who wonder if such a shooting system can really work, the answer is Yes...

Cheers!

Flex

 

[Flex]

It isn't necessary to try CTE to know what adjustments are necessary. We've been reporting what adjustments are necessary since these threads started.

What's missing is an explanation by system users of how they make the adjustments we know are needed. That's missing because system users don't know they make adjustments so they don't believe they do.

I know you don't understand this, cookie - neither do any of the other system users here. That doesn't make it untrue.

pj
chgo

Just a second, Pat. I'm a "systems user" and I make adjustments to make this stuff work. And I know what I do and what adjustments I make. They are conscious and voluntary, and not feel-based.

Part of the problem with adjustments is that a variation of one's stroke can screw things up, and big time. Thus, it's quite possible that someone might think the system doesn't work, when it really does, at least of lot of the time.

I'm not into "denial" or whatever; adjustments are definitely needed on some shots, not on others.

That's why I think these systems have their place, as a reference when other things might not be working as planned.

For instance, the cloth on the table can mess things up. An adjustment needs to be made for swerve and throw and so on. You know that as well or better than most. Thus, IMHO, actually showing someone how these things work, or don't work, what their limitations are and so on, is quite important.

If someone doesn't want to see, that's their choice.

Flex

 

[Colin Colenso]

Throw and Amount of English

I know it does... for my stroke and cue, at least. It is pretty easy to setup a shot to show that a slight amount of side spin will send the OB off its line. A half a tip will do it. The fuller you hit the ball the greater the effect. And the longer the shot the greater the effect.

Just set up a shot aiming straight at a diamond. Hit it with a slow/medium speed a half tip off and see where it goes... It does not take much spin at all to alter the path.

Well, at least on dirty equiptment like mine... and again, it may be dependent on stroke, tip, humidity, etc.. I'm no expert but I do know a little spin can equate to some predictable throw... especially when hitting the OB damn near center.

CB,
There's no doubt a touch of side turns an OB, especially on a soft fullish shot. But the problem is, that for the turn generated on the OB, there is a turn transfered to the CB in the opposite direction, such that it is near to impossible on most shots to gain a positional advantage in terms of holding an angle. When the CB and OB are close, I believe it is a more realistic proposition, though still dificult. On a long shot, like Busta's, the swerve negate any possible benefit.

From watching the video several times, I doubt he has got any more than 10% english, looks more like about 3-4% to me.

Below is a throw chart that shows how the throw differs to a rolling natural follow pot played at a speed where the CB would roll 2 table lengths.

The speed of Busta's shot is what I would call about 1.5. That is, the CB would have travelled about 1.5 table lengths from the collision point if the OB wasn't there.

My chart below is for speed 1. 1 Table length travel, at 7/8 ball thickness. Even if there were 25% english, the throw would be about 1 inch per yard of travel. At 10% OE, over the 2 feet of Busta's shot, he would have got almost exactly the same throw as for a speed 2 natural roll shot and about 3/8" of an inch turn compared to a pure stun shot played at the same speed.

If he had played the shot with 75% outside english, which he clearly didn't, the throw would have been around 5 inches per yard, or around 3.5 inches over the length of the shot played.

The degree of spin is very crucial in this type of shot in determining throw.

Colin

 

[CaptiveBred]

I thought you were upgrading to videos, Colin

BTW, if you toss a touch of low on the CB (with the half tip of side), the OB will throw much more. Busta hits low and to the side. With that distance and speed, its an obvious shot to me. I shoot it all the time. At least I think I do

Give it a try. Hitting full off center grants you new options that are completely controllable. The fuller I hit a ball the more accurate I can be.

BTW, not disputing your charts. I have my super computer computing the results as we speak!

 

[eezbank]

Ah, but that's the Holy Grail of the CTE systems...

The adjustments!!

BTW, I've developed a few of these systems for my own use, but don't share them. Too complicated to try to explain how to come up with a workable angle using the cue stick to estimate the angle, then, based upon that estimation to do the preliminary aiming and then to pivot to center with a bridge length that varies depending on the distance of the cue ball to the object ball, and then once that is dialed in, to make adjustments for the amount of throw that will likely occur depending on the kind or quality of pure center ball stroke that is applied. Way too difficult.

What I can tell you is that it does work, at least for me, for a surprising number of shots. When dealing with very critical, exacting shots, well, there are plenty of things to go wrong, and the ball doesn't always pot, at least not for me. When that happens, I'll usually either consign the miss to an estimation error, or more likely, something funky happening with my stroke.

And also BTW, I'm not a masochist and don't intend on posting how I've learned how to do all this, but a word to the wise should be sufficient: Spider gave me the ideas when he posted some stuff on here, and I ran with it, and played around with it, and have found out how to make it work.

Sharing it? Not a chance. At least not on here. If a friend of mine wants ideas about how to make it work for himself, I'm more than happy to oblige.

In the meantime, for all those who wonder if such a shooting system can really work, the answer is Yes...

Cheers!

Flex

Great post Flex. I put enough information on that video for those that wanted to learn a pivot system but couldn't understand with diagrams and pictures. I have learned why you won't share on here the hard way. It's always the same group on here that go on attack mode when someone posts a CTE thread. It would be nice to have just one of them step up and get on video and show why CTE won't work...or better yet if they have a better method share with the AZ community.

 

[Colin Colenso]

I thought you were upgrading to videos, Colin

BTW, if you toss a touch of low on the CB (with the half tip of side), the OB will throw much more. Busta hits low and to the side. With that distance and speed, its an obvious shot to me. I shoot it all the time. At least I think I do

Give it a try. Hitting full off center grants you new options that are completely controllable. The fuller I hit a ball the more accurate I can be.

BTW, not disputing your charts. I have my super computer computing the results as we speak!

CB,
The throw equations that are used to produce these plots indicate that there is the same or less throw when there is a degree of follow or top in addition to english. I'm not certain the throw equations are perfect, but I haven't found any anomolies that couldn't be explained.

With the off center draw shot you're talking about, played a bit like a drag shot, what you might be experiencing is a touch of swerve making it appear like there is more throw. (Sending the OB to a wider cut angle.)

Interestingly, my testing indicates that on firmer shots especially, hitting high follow off center results in significantly more swerve than does low off center shots. I alter my bridge length by up to 3 inches to adjust for the extremes of these shots. i.e. I'll bridge 2 inches longer pre-pivot for the high english and 1 inch shorter for the low english.

Would be interested if you try a couple of shots like this and take note of how you have to aim to make these two shots at slow and firm speeds.

It was a result that surprised me a bit, but has had good results in improving the accuracy of my adjustments for some shots.

Note, I prefer to play follow english hitting less than a tip above center and letting the natural roll develop as the CB travels to the OB. When I hit high the early swerve is very noticeable.

Colin