Curly maple shaft

JoeyInCali

Maker of Joey Bautista Cues
Silver Member
We core curly maple with straight grain maple for stability.
Why would curly maple be a good idea for shafts ?
Curlies do not seem stiffer or heavier to me.
I believe the curls are there due to stress .
 

scdiveteam

Rick Geschrey
Silver Member
We core curly maple with straight grain maple for stability.
Why would curly maple be a good idea for shafts ?
Curlies do not seem stiffer or heavier to me.
I believe the curls are there due to stress .

Hi,

I agree. I would never use any thing other than maple grown in a certain region in Upper Michigan.

Then again why listen to me, I think pie shafts and the like are a lot of marketing B S and people just want to waste money because they think that it will make them a better player. Kinda like snake oil.

Nick Varner told me that using those lam shafts with LD are fine but you must change the hit point on the object ball. You have to re-learn that point and that means if you play with one you can't go back and forth with a regular maple shaft. The problem he said is "if you couldn't hit the right hit point in the first place paying a lot of money might be a bad idea".

New technology is fine and good and to each their own, I just believe in the tried and true old school dense maple shafts.

JMO

Rick Geschrey
 

cueman

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
We core curly maple with straight grain maple for stability.
Why would curly maple be a good idea for shafts ?
Curlies do not seem stiffer or heavier to me.
I believe the curls are there due to stress .
I doubt you will find hardly any difference in the really hard curl and normal hard maple as far as stability goes. Try it, you might like it.
 

qbilder

slower than snails
Silver Member
Western big leaf maple is the softest maple I know of that is commonly used in cues, and it is not used as shafts. Red maple gets used a lot because it's often very curly, but still softer than the hard maples & not suitable for shafts. However, it is prone to hybridizing with black maple, which is a hard maple, & that wood is often sold as hard maple right along with black maple & sugar maple. Black maple is also prone to hybridizing with sugar maple, so in a mixed hardwood forest that has all three species of maple growing in close proximity, it's a crap shoot as to what is actually there. Evolution likely created a tiny subspecies unique to the specific environment & it's honestly almost impossible to tell what the tree is without DNA. And don't forget silver maple. It often gets milled & labelled as hard maple even though it's not as hard as sugar maple. There's even chalk maple, an almost unknown undergrowth tree that is hard & resiliant like sugar maple but very white & doesn't produce the sugar. Trees large enough for harvest are absolutely good for shafts. And all produce curly figure.

The biggest myth about maple is that only the best comes from northern MI or Canada. The MOST comes from there, but not the best. Certain shoreline areas of UPMI produce the most & best birdseye maple, while the Adirondacks & Alleghenies in NY across to Maine produce the straightest grain and curliest maple. The mountain areas have a much more mixed hardwood selection & maples are not the "big" trees like they are in more northern areas, so they are undergrowth trees that grow very straight, slow, and don't branch out. They're not as abundant, either. You don't find a forest full of sugar maples like I have seen in UPMI. But the area is much larger, covering a range from SE PA, across to NC & all the way up through ME, and everything between. Sugar maple actually grows all the way down to Florida & as far west as TX & OK. Even out here in NM we have a variation of sugar maple that grows high in the mountains, and it's VERY hard, but tough to find straight enough for shafts. Point being, shaft quality maple grows pretty much all over, just more abundant in some areas than others.

IMO, I prefer to use undergrowth wood from any of the mountain forests of the Appalachians, whether it be rolling hills of PA, OH, WV, KY, or the larger ranges of the Alleghenies & Adirondacks. Having studied maple extensively & continually doing so, I consistently find the straightest, heaviest, strongest wood comes from these mountain areas. They may not commercially produce as much as Canada & MI, but the wood is better suited for shafts, IMO. I'm actually pursuing a degree in forest ecology & plant biology, specifically for the purpose of studying trees & the way environmental characteristics affect lumber qualities.

And to get back on topic, I personally think curly shafts tend to be harder with better flex memory. However, one must be selective & careful which curly wood to use as shafts. There are various reasons the figure is formed and as such various qualities. I prefer the "fiddleback" curl that comes from heavy, dense trees that are buckling under their own weight. This wood is sought after by violin & fiddle makers for a reason. But the stringed instrument luthiers won't touch other forms of curl that result from odd growth pattern or damage or stump wood. They want the fine, tight curl that comes from a straight, healthy, strong tree. Unfortunately, so do veneer mills. So it's not easy to acquire. But it makes fore awesome shafts....and forearms.....and handles.....
 

manwon

"WARLOCK 1"
Silver Member
We core curly maple with straight grain maple for stability.
Why would curly maple be a good idea for shafts ?
Curlies do not seem stiffer or heavier to me.
I believe the curls are there due to stress .


I see your point, but I have my own idea about this subject. I agree that shaft wood that is very very highly figured may be weakened. However, the I will stand by what I said above, and that is that the Curly Maple shafts I am currently using and have sold to others are stiffer hitting than straight grained Maple Shafts. The shafts I like have a mild Curly effect to them, and while I agree that the curls are due to a form of stress, I would not use that term, I would call it compression.

I suspect that the Curly or Fiddle Back effect is caused by pressure on a certain section of the Tree. Now if the Tree grows for hundreds of years and the section compressed doesn't fail or crack it only becomes stronger and ultimately denser. I suspect that this effect is natural part of the Trees growth, and that is occurs in parts of the Tree that may not be exactly straight which means that the in the end this effect is actually a way that the Tree strengthen areas where there is more pressure than other sections.

I could be completely incorrect also, if anyone has a site for documented information I would certainly appreciate a link to it.
 

jocnat

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Sorry not trying to start a debate. Just trying to get some help.
As i turn the cones down I am getting slight tearing and slight bumps that can be felt. I am using a 6 point router bit.I tried sanding between two wood blocks. Tried using a very sharp block block plane while turning slowly. Appreciate any advice I can get as I have already ruined 2 shaft blanks.

Attached are some pictures of what I am working with.

DSC_2361.JPG


DSC_2363.JPG


DSC_2363.JPG


DSC_2365.JPG
 

manwon

"WARLOCK 1"
Silver Member
Western big leaf maple is the softest maple I know of that is commonly used in cues, and it is not used as shafts. Red maple gets used a lot because it's often very curly, but still softer than the hard maples & not suitable for shafts. However, it is prone to hybridizing with black maple, which is a hard maple, & that wood is often sold as hard maple right along with black maple & sugar maple. Black maple is also prone to hybridizing with sugar maple, so in a mixed hardwood forest that has all three species of maple growing in close proximity, it's a crap shoot as to what is actually there. Evolution likely created a tiny subspecies unique to the specific environment & it's honestly almost impossible to tell what the tree is without DNA. And don't forget silver maple. It often gets milled & labelled as hard maple even though it's not as hard as sugar maple. There's even chalk maple, an almost unknown undergrowth tree that is hard & resiliant like sugar maple but very white & doesn't produce the sugar. Trees large enough for harvest are absolutely good for shafts. And all produce curly figure.

The biggest myth about maple is that only the best comes from northern MI or Canada. The MOST comes from there, but not the best. Certain shoreline areas of UPMI produce the most & best birdseye maple, while the Adirondacks & Alleghenies in NY across to Maine produce the straightest grain and curliest maple. The mountain areas have a much more mixed hardwood selection & maples are not the "big" trees like they are in more northern areas, so they are undergrowth trees that grow very straight, slow, and don't branch out. They're not as abundant, either. You don't find a forest full of sugar maples like I have seen in UPMI. But the area is much larger, covering a range from SE PA, across to NC & all the way up through ME, and everything between. Sugar maple actually grows all the way down to Florida & as far west as TX & OK. Even out here in NM we have a variation of sugar maple that grows high in the mountains, and it's VERY hard, but tough to find straight enough for shafts. Point being, shaft quality maple grows pretty much all over, just more abundant in some areas than others.

IMO, I prefer to use undergrowth wood from any of the mountain forests of the Appalachians, whether it be rolling hills of PA, OH, WV, KY, or the larger ranges of the Alleghenies & Adirondacks. Having studied maple extensively & continually doing so, I consistently find the straightest, heaviest, strongest wood comes from these mountain areas. They may not commercially produce as much as Canada & MI, but the wood is better suited for shafts, IMO. I'm actually pursuing a degree in forest ecology & plant biology, specifically for the purpose of studying trees & the way environmental characteristics affect lumber qualities.

And to get back on topic, I personally think curly shafts tend to be harder with better flex memory. However, one must be selective & careful which curly wood to use as shafts. There are various reasons the figure is formed and as such various qualities. I prefer the "fiddleback" curl that comes from heavy, dense trees that are buckling under their own weight. This wood is sought after by violin & fiddle makers for a reason. But the stringed instrument luthiers won't touch other forms of curl that result from odd growth pattern or damage or stump wood. They want the fine, tight curl that comes from a straight, healthy, strong tree. Unfortunately, so do veneer mills. So it's not easy to acquire. But it makes fore awesome shafts....and forearms.....and handles.....



Thanks for this information, I am going to make a copy of this for my little referance disks that I keep if you don't mind.

It also kinda backs up what little I have found while trying to do so research on the subject.

Your time is much appreciated.
 

qbilder

slower than snails
Silver Member
As i turn the cones down I am getting slight tearing and slight bumps that can be felt. I am using a 6 point router bit.I tried sanding between two wood blocks. Tried using a very sharp block block plane while turning slowly. Appreciate any advice I can get as I have already ruined 2 shaft blanks.

You have to understand that the curl is basically wrinkled grain. Think of it as a sine wave. The top & bottom of the wave have linear grain, while the rest of it is end grain. That means roughly half of the shaft is made up of end grain, and why tear out is so common. The grain varies in hardness every single curl, which is why you feel bumps after sanding. You need VERY sharp tooling to cut it in order to avoid tear out. Use a better router bit. I recommend a Freud 4-wing slot cutter, 1/8". Get rid of that 6-wing thing and start using top grade bits. Doesn't matter how many teeth the blade has if it's low quality carbide and not all teeth are contacting the work. Once you get an ultra smooth cut with your router, then you'll only need light sanding with 400+ grit to finish the shaft, and that is not aggressive enough to expose the variation in grain from one curl to the next. The smoother the cut, the less sanding required. The less sanding, the smoother the grain. Hope that helps
 

BHQ

we'll miss you
Silver Member
You have to understand that the curl is basically wrinkled grain. Think of it as a sine wave. The top & bottom of the wave have linear grain, while the rest of it is end grain. That means roughly half of the shaft is made up of end grain, and why tear out is so common. The grain varies in hardness every single curl, which is why you feel bumps after sanding. You need VERY sharp tooling to cut it in order to avoid tear out. Use a better router bit. I recommend a Freud 4-wing slot cutter, 1/8". Get rid of that 6-wing thing and start using top grade bits. Doesn't matter how many teeth the blade has if it's low quality carbide and not all teeth are contacting the work. Once you get an ultra smooth cut with your router, then you'll only need light sanding with 400+ grit to finish the shaft, and that is not aggressive enough to expose the variation in grain from one curl to the next. The smoother the cut, the less sanding required. The less sanding, the smoother the grain. Hope that helps
i just cut two curly shafts this afternoon
fast cuts at 32tpi
these are still roughly .075 over size
i have to agree with crispy, it might be your cutter or your setup
even at the 32tpi, they're pretty doggone smooth

with a bullet brand,
now called hiletta industries, $1.17 router two flute 5/16" bit

pics from joint, midway & tip
 

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