Custom Cue hits better than Production Cue! Really??!!

[toomanybugs]

Well, I have played pool over several years. In my younger days, I had a Adams, then move onto Huebler's. In the middle 80's played with Joss's and Schon's. As production cues go, nothing can beat the Schon for its workmanship and how it effortlessly puts spin and/or english on the ball. I find sold cues with insert SS joins put more action on the ball over the SS wood to wood join. It maybe just me? But wow it is like it is on auto-pilot.

Well, I got my first custom, a Jensen for my birthday. I don't believe it. It has a more solid hit over my older Schon. I was able to put a full ball masse on the cue ball out of the box. My best was always a 1/4-1/2 ball with my favorite pool hall Schon. Draw and English also came to me with little or no effort. In the past, I had my shaft upgraded on my Huebler to an ivory ferrule, but it only put half the action on the ball over the Schon's. It is my belief that my Huebler with ivory ferrule, played better than my short flirtation with a Meucci.

In my book, nothing can beat the feel of a Custom or Schon SS insert joined cue. A local road player from my past had a Meucci Hoppe of some kind; that had an SS insert join. Although, I never got to play with it. I never saw another one like it. It was an "Original" of some kind and this was in the early 80's and it may have been a special order?

I would rate a Jensen over my brothers Richard Black and better than my favorite Schon (Runde). I wonder how this Jensen will compare with my buddies Skip Weston?

Bugs.

 

[JoeyInCali]

a note about 314 shafts... is it possible for cuemakers to duplicate this technology? i guess assuming they could somehow get around the patent issues. this is where i feel the future of cuemaking lies.

I believe if you change the configuration by 20%, the patent won't be infringed.
Now, which maker is going to drill deeper than 5 inches and bore a little bigger than .250" and use a really soft ferrule?

Do people associate low deflection to hit?
Or cueball action?

 

[JoeyInCali]

If anything, a production cue company with better technology and resourses should be able to build something that performs better than a cue from a one man shop, and charge less, shouldn't it?
If you find a production cue that hits as good as a Zylr, Petersen or Hagan, lemme know.

 

[Cue Crazy]

I think schon is a good all around cue, I have hit with both old and new, and they seem to give me a since of ease at the table anytime I've tried one that someone had. The cues seems to do the work for me, and seem to be fairly consistent from cue to cue. atleast the ones I've hit with.

I aggree though that what all goes into a custom cue makes It what It is, but also think It's harder then some think to make them all hit the same, but then again I have yet to build 2 alike on purpose Myself, because I'm still trying new things on each one. I have yet to find or know of a universal hit that everyone prefers. mostly so many will like one cue's feel, while another group will prefer another. I think It's important for the builder to know which catagory a individual customer falls under, and build him the style that will work best for him. The best way to do that would be to ask what cues he has shot with mostly, possibly even watch him play if that is feasable, and what ever info he can gain to make the choices easier. That is where having your local guy build a cue for you can have it's advantages, altough there are some makers that build good all around cues also. The more flexible a customer is about what materials are used and where, the easier it would seem for the maker to fit him properly.

I also aggree the custom guy does tend to take more time on each individual cue, and that will show in the woods used & where/how they are used, tenons that are sized just right, with just the right fits, no major gaps etc. The types of materials other then woods used also contribute to which type of hit a cue may have. Possibly even the glues, and ofcoarse the time spent turning slowly at just the right times in the build.
It's no secret that I too prefer to use dense shafts with high ring counts when I can get them, and I do feel they play better then others, but that's just My personal opinion, and I think some deflection suites some people better then a super stiff hit. It's rare to find a production cue with a ring count as high as I would prefer. It's hard to find the high count period, much less with minimal runoff, even for a custom maker that seeks them out. They would normally be his elite shafts if they are very high in ring count.

The reason as I know It, that the famous laminated shafts have low deflection is in the last few inches of the shaft as much as the laminations contributing, and it is something you could do with most any shaft. As far as stepping on anyone's patent, well, I'm not sure what the guidelines would be.

 

[blueballs]

a note about 314 shafts... is it possible for cuemakers to duplicate this technology? i guess assuming they could somehow get around the patent issues. this is where i feel the future of cuemaking lies.

I believe if you change the configuration by 20%, the patent won't be infringed.
Now, which maker is going to drill deeper than 5 inches and bore a little bigger than .250" and use a really soft ferrule?

Do people associate low deflection to hit?
Or cueball action?

i believe if you ask a custom maker to bore a hole it is not patent infringement. but, if they market a shaft with a hole in it that would be illegal. any lawyers in this forum?

 

[X Breaker]

Hey there, Richard, it's Megan....... Hope you are doing well, and look forward to catching up at one of the events this year. In response to your posts, I think you have a great point about the production/custom cues. I have to say that I think the biggest reason why custom cues play better than production cues is precisely because of the shaft. Of course this doesn't mean that production shafts can't one day match up with the ones turned out by cuemakers, but right now the are sub par in comparison.
In reference t the predator comments, I also played with a 314 for a while and switched back because i didn't like the feel of it. I guess I could learn to live with it if I chose, but it actually made the game harder for me, not easier. I play now with a custom shaft on a production butt. The quality of the shaft is so superb that it doesn't really matter what butt I would use provided it's balanced how i like and has the corrrect joint. By the way, I'll be putting out my own cueline made by McDermott shortly. The designs are classy and one of a kind. I'll show you next time I see you!

Meg

Hi Megan,

I am very happy to see you doing so well, with your DVD, cue sponsorship, and now your own line of cues, you are doing better everytime I turn around. I know you have worked very hard on your game and on marketing yourself, and I would like to wish you all the best with your career.

It is always a delight meeting you. Perhaps I will see you in Valley Forge? I will be there in a small booth on the lower level L27 trying to sell some cues.

Good luck in NC.

Richard

 

[ribdoner]

I have been thinking about this for a long time. I just cannot really understand why a lot of people believe a custom cue alwasy hit better than a production cue..

If anything, a production cue company with better technology and resourses should be able to build something that performs better than a cue from a one man shop, and charge less, shouldn't it?

Note that I am merely talking about performance here. Or in other words, just about buying a cue to win as many games of pool as possible. I am not talking about workmanship, investment value, personal preference on wood, style...etc.

Let's say if two players were playing a match and they are both equal in physical skill and mental strength, it is only logical to conclude that the person with the better piece of equipment would have an edge. If this piece of equipment could help the player to say draw the ball back by an inch more, or to put a bit more english on the ball, or to shoot with a bit more feel, a bit less vibration, or to break with a bit more speed, or to jump a bit higher with more accurancy...etc, this player would have a great advantage. Don't you think?

I just cannot understand why a custom cue could provide this advantage while a production cue cannot.

If I see a car with the best performance parts, and the best suspension system custom by some great performance mechanic, and I mass produce this car with the exact same spec, wouldn't this car still perform the best regardless of whether it is a custom or production?

And wouldn't it be a better car than another one custom by some inferior mechanic which does not perform with as much horse power or as well a handling? The only difference is that now I can lower the cost and sell it cheaper so more consumers can afford to have this great car with great handling and awesome power.

Richard

If you aspire to mass produce a cue that performs at,or exceeds, levels achieved by custom makers you MUST pay attention to detail. If you want to achieve the consistancy of SEARING, SW SHOP, and many others the quality of wood, esp. shaft blanks, is of paramount importance. Because of the dynamic nature of raw materials only STRINGENT inspection/quality control will allow for consistancy of the finished product. If you don't have the expertise to select and use the proper materials in the correct way you'll end up peeing into the wind. Some custom makers also have inventory that is "special'. Very old, high quality shaft wood and similiar components for butt assembly. I don't want to be redundant but you also need to find a way to use and/or create your aged, seasoned wood. Having a posse to hype your cue will help on the initial sell in but ONLY hi quality/performance product will allow you to get repeat customers and growth. Avoid cnc embellishment if you hope to carve out a niche in the mid or upper price point tier of production cues. Competition is FIERCE for cues of that ilk.

 

[X Breaker]

If you aspire to mass produce a cue that performs at,or exceeds, levels achieved by custom makers you MUST pay attention to detail. If you want to achieve the consistancy of SEARING, SW SHOP, and many others the quality of wood, esp. shaft blanks, is of paramount importance. Because of the dynamic nature of raw materials only STRINGENT inspection/quality control will allow for consistancy of the finished product. If you don't have the expertise to select and use the proper materials in the correct way you'll end up peeing into the wind. Some custom makers also have inventory that is "special'. Very old, high quality shaft wood and similiar components for butt assembly. I don't want to be redundant but you also need to find a way to use and/or create your aged, seasoned wood. Having a posse to hype your cue will help on the initial sell in but ONLY hi quality/performance product will allow you to get repeat customers and growth. Avoid cnc embellishment if you hope to carve out a niche in the mid or upper price point tier of production cues. Competition is FIERCE for cues of that ilk.

I do not see us going into mass producing a brand.

I do agree with your that quality control is very hard to acheive but is also very important. That has always been our first priority, along with making continuous improvement.

When we do launch our playing cues, they will not use CNC. We prefer to build them by hand half spliced with veneers. We are working on the shaft taper and spec now. As many have pointed out, the shaft is crucial and we are trying out different things and getting opinion from various players.

I cannot see us ever building 100,000 cues a month. For our playing cues, we expect to be able to complete about 10 a month if everything goes well. I hope I can have at least a couple cues ready in VF but I am not sure.

Thank you for your great advice.


Richard

 

[TheBook]

I would rate a Jensen over my brothers Richard Black and better than my favorite Schon (Runde). I wonder how this Jensen will compare with my buddies Skip Weston?

Bugs.

My first cues were Schons (pre 1986). I have purchased a Jensen which is now my playing cue. Mike told me at the time no one can make a SS joint play like his cues. I believe it. The cue has to me a great sound and feel. Another player told me that he noticed my cue sounds different than the others. It is hard to compare though because the Jensen has a leather wrap, ivory ferrule and Mike's milkdud tip which is very hard. The Schons are linen wrap, micarta ferrule and don't know about the tip. I have a Skip with ivory joint, ferrule and lizard wrap. The cue looks nicer and has better workmanship than the Jensen but I can't say I like the play or feel better. Jensen and Schons are good value and beater cues but not as good on resale like a Weston.

 

[enzo]

i think that 50% 314 stat is a joke...

more than 50% of the top 30 players in the world play with a predator shaft.


chris G

The funny thing is that many of the other 50% that don't use 314's are in one of 2 categories:

1) locked into a contract with a major cue company (ie archer with schon), and must use their products.

2) have tried 314's and realized their amazing benefits, but also realize that their game will fall apart for a month or two before they get the feel for it. or, have tried them, couldn't make a ball with them, and just don't have the mental capacity to realize how beneficial they are.

So, i think that 50% stat is highly misleading, it would be a lot higher execpt for those 2 above reasons.

 

[icem3n]

It's no secret that I too prefer to use dense shafts with high ring counts when I can get them, and I do feel they play better then others, but that's just My personal opinion

I believe that too. .

Check this out... http://us.st11.yimg.com/store1.yimg.com/I/cuecomponents_1881_71016903

 

[bogey54311]

The funny thing is that many of the other 50% that don't use 314's are in one of 2 categories:

1) locked into a contract with a major cue company (ie archer with schon), and must use their products.

2) have tried 314's and realized their amazing benefits, but also realize that their game will fall apart for a month or two before they get the feel for it. or, have tried them, couldn't make a ball with them, and just don't have the mental capacity to realize how beneficial they are.

So, i think that 50% stat is highly misleading, it would be a lot higher execpt for those 2 above reasons.

im not sure i understand.
first you say they are only for beginners.
now you say there are amazing benifits (which i agree), but half the pro's are to stupid to use them.

i believe older players shouldnt even try em. they are so used to deflection, and play well, that there is no reason they should mess with there game.

the younger players (beginners to pro) would have a huge edge using them.

predators are geared for only one thing, performance.

and some of those guys who have contracts, well, they use the butt of the cue they have a contract with, but put a predator without a logo one the cue. ive seen it with my own eyes many times.

chris

 

[meganite]

just an FYI, Archer has been with Cuestix/Scorpion cues for about five years now. I know because my ex husband designs them.

 

[JoeyInCali]

just an FYI, Archer has been with Cuestix/Scorpion cues for about five years now. I know because my ex husband designs them.

Does he shoot with the crappy shafts they come with?
Or they're custom made shafts for him?

 

[meganite]

To my knowledge he does shoot with the crappy shafts-at least he used to as of the last time it came up in conversation. Of course they are turned down to his specs and whatnot, but they aren't anything special as far as the wood and craftsmanship. Allison is tihe same way with Cuetec. Makes ya sick, doesn't it

 

[Cue Crazy]

I believe that too. .

Check this out... http://us.st11.yimg.com/store1.yimg.com/I/cuecomponents_1881_71016903

The one on the left might possibly work

 

[enzo]

reading comprehension

im not sure i understand.
first you say they are only for beginners.
now you say there are amazing benifits (which i agree), but half the pro's are to stupid to use them.

i believe older players shouldnt even try em. they are so used to deflection, and play well, that there is no reason they should mess with there game.

the younger players (beginners to pro) would have a huge edge using them.

predators are geared for only one thing, performance.

and some of those guys who have contracts, well, they use the butt of the cue they have a contract with, but put a predator without a logo one the cue. ive seen it with my own eyes many times.

chris

first i said they are only for beginners?? i don't remember saying that.

i'll only address one of your points, too time consuming to get to all of them:
older players shouldn't try them? longs shots with english that all players miss often, and thus avoid shooting, become amazingly easier with a predator. no reason to use them?? how about because a young, very accurate player is making long, hard shots from all over the table when another player with just as much talent can't make (or at least doesn't have as high a percentage) these same shots because of his equipment?

 

[icem3n]

The one on the left might possibly work

You read my mind. Check this out which is posted by Fast_N_loose

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=25075

Tight ring and dead straight all the way to the ferrule.

 

[Jeff]

The one on the left might possibly work

You can buy these shafts priced by the growth rings. Starting at:

16 to 19 growth rings per inch the price per shaft is $220.

All the way to:

50 growth rings per inch the price per shaft is $540.

Scroll down to the bottom of the page

http://www.queperfect.biz/prodigy.htm

 

[icem3n]

Jeff, do you experience playing with this prodigy Shaft? Are they real? I mean 50 rings per inch.. I never in my life seen one before? any pictures?