Darren Appleton's view on Tips - agree or disagree???

[longhorns2]

That was back when they assigned a 1ms contact time to all tips... The Russians proved otherwise using slow motion video but some of the old theories more or less based on solid on solid collision are still out there...

Tips are springs... You change the spring rate you alter certain aspects of the collision like spin/speed ratios and yes even deflection... The only deflection tests I have seen were done at speed to eliminate swerve... Effectively compressing all of the tips into solids regardless of their hardness only established the high end of the scale... We need robots and golf money equipment LOL

My hypothesis is that a hard tip doesn't spin as much all things equal, but it does put more energy into the ball so that it arrives at the object ball with more spin relative to the soft tip. I'd like to see tests showing a robot hitting the exact same spot low on the cueball for a long draw shot

 

[pt109]

Joe Davis, the father of snooker, said the perfect tip is hard, with a soft epidermis.
....I tend to follow that.....many times I wish my tip had been softer for one shot...
...but soft tips tend to lose their shape.

 

[Tramp Steamer]

Steamer Cue Sports Ltd. FourSkin tips won't. As a matter-of-fact they tend to grow when properly struck. With a little wine, some mood music, who the hell knows what might happen with a FourSkin.
Available now at your local Pool and Billiards accessories outlet, and of course your neighborhood Walgreens. Your choice of limp, kinda hard, and damned hard. :smile:

 

[one stroke]

Fully disagree. Those at the very top of performance in any field have the experience and insight to know what works well and what doesn't to a higher level of confidence.

Your example is far too broad. The vast majority of professional caliber players aren't winning as much as Van Boeing or Appleton - same as the top race car drivers are the ones winning the majority of the races.

So I tend to give more credence to the opinions of top players when they speak on performance criteria. That doesn't mean that any given comment is actually true but it does mean that I will take it in and file it away for consideration and testing IF that comment affects my game in some way. (since I already play with a medium-soft tip it doesn't yet)

I know it's romantic to dream that pool is a sport where any amateur knows as much as any pro.....but when it comes to making the cueball do what you want, the amateur does not "know" as much....not physically and not mentally.

In other words - Darren Appleton could, through an earpiece, coach a player your speed in a heads up match and that player would likely beat you easily. Eventually that player would rocket past you just due knowledge transfer alone.

So really, no amateurs don't know as much as pros. Not that pros are always "right" about what they think is happening. For an example we can look up Mike Sigel's views on throw and find that they have been mythbusted by science.

And Darren's tip/stroke correlation may also be busted by science. But to dismiss it out of hand as merely an opinion of equal value to Joe Poolplayer's opinion on the same subject is silly in my opinion.

Sorry simply not true plenty of amatures have equal knoledge of pro's in all areas of the game ,, the difference is in thier playing ability and thru trial and error they find what works best for them tips shafts strokes what they can make what they can't
I would not give a decided edge to a player of equal talent just because a pro was coaching him , unless it's one pocket , or straight pool or players of little skill to begin with
Execution is where most games are won and lost pro's simply do that on a more consistent basis that's why thier pro's

I actually have found many pro's don't know much outside of what they like thier knoledge is very limited in the science of the game ,
Darren probably is one who's took the time to learn those things

1

 

[The Renfro]

Sorry simply not true plenty of amatures have equal knoledge of pro's in all areas of the game ,, the difference is in thier playing ability and thru trial and error they find what works best for them tips shafts strokes what they can make what they can't
I would not give a decided edge to a player of equal talent just because a pro was coaching him , unless it's one pocket , or straight pool or players of little skill to begin with
Execution is where most games are won and lost pro's simply do that on a more consistent basis that's why thier pro's

I actually have found many pro's don't know much outside of what they like thier knoledge is very limited in the science of the game ,
Darren probably is one who's took the time to learn those things

1

Yeah no.... I have never walked away from a discussion with a player at the pro level regarding tips where I came away without some added insight from a new perspective... It usually comes down to style of
play and their preferred ball speed and shaft choice that establishes the choice in tips and therefore colors their opinion....

Different shafts and different ball speeds are going to have different synergy with different tips/ spring rates.... Same shaft 2 different players and they may have totally different opinions on a tip....

An amateur may have a mental understanding of tips and "pool physics" but that doesn't mean that they have a concept equal to a professionals even if they have the same tip, same shaft and use the same ball speed because they won't have the refined stroke.. It's applied vs hypothetical.. It's like saying a local fiddle player knows the difference in a fiddle vs a Stradivarius as well as a concert violinist at the top of his art.. "Well they both play a tune"...

Darren's comment actually sheds light on his playing style... He tries to manage his game so there are no big strokes needed.. He can come with them when needed and is in the same vein as Alex, Oscar, Ralf and Corey... On the other side you have players like Shane, CJ, Earl and Shaw who seem to try and over power a table....

I'd suggest seeing which player plays your style and finding out what equipment they are actually using... What is advertised is not always the truth and these guys don't eat if they are missing...

I have spent 6 years testing tips and making them... I can tell you that different tips on different shafts will give you different results PLAYING... I can tell you that a stiff shaft with a soft tip will be totally different when you put a super soft on it even in deflection at lower than high speed.... I can give you hardness ratings and COR ratings and spring rates...

Does this mean I would discount Darren about a soft tip on a shaft I have never played that he relies on to be top 10 in the world? Not on my life.. Not today and likely not tomorrow........

 

[one stroke]

Yeah no.... I have never walked away from a discussion with a player at the pro level regarding tips where I came away without some added insight from a new perspective... It usually comes down to style of
play and their preferred ball speed and shaft choice that establishes the choice in tips and therefore colors their opinion....

Different shafts and different ball speeds are going to have different synergy with different tips/ spring rates.... Same shaft 2 different players and they may have totally different opinions on a tip....

An amateur may have a mental understanding of tips and "pool physics" but that doesn't mean that they have a concept equal to a professionals even if they have the same tip, same shaft and use the same ball speed because they won't have the refined stroke.. It's applied vs hypothetical.. It's like saying a local fiddle player knows the difference in a fiddle vs a Stradivarius as well as a concert violinist at the top of his art.. "Well they both play a tune"...

Darren's comment actually sheds light on his playing style... He tries to manage his game so there are no big strokes needed.. He can come with them when needed and is in the same vein as Alex, Oscar, Ralf and Corey... On the other side you have players like Shane, CJ, Earl and Shaw who seem to try and over power a table....

I'd suggest seeing which player plays your style and finding out what equipment they are actually using... What is advertised is not always the truth and these guys don't eat if they are missing...

I have spent 6 years testing tips and making them... I can tell you that different tips on different shafts will give you different results PLAYING... I can tell you that a stiff shaft with a soft tip will be totally different when you put a super soft on it even in deflection at lower than high speed.... I can give you hardness ratings and COR ratings and spring rates...

Does this mean I would discount Darren about a soft tip on a shaft I have never played that he relies on to be top 10 in the world? Not on my life.. Not today and likely not tomorrow........

those tests like yours are often public knowledge from every shaft at tip manufacture it's not the hidden national treasure and you have proved my point because you know ,
Your certainly not alone many people who are not pro players know these things not just pro's
I'm pretty sure what tip and shaft works best for me without Darren's opinion who at the end of the day is a player and has no credentials that I know of correct me if I'm wrong that makes him a expert on what every amature player should be playing with


1

 

[The Renfro]

those tests like yours are often public knowledge from every shaft at tip manufacture it's not the hidden national treasure and you have proved my point because you know ,
Your certainly not alone many people who are not pro players know these things not just pro's
I'm pretty sure what tip and shaft works best for me without Darren's opinion who at the end of the day is a player and has no credentials that I know of correct me if I'm wrong that makes him a expert on what every amature player should be playing with


1

Sorry one stroke I will continue to disagree based upon my experiences in talking to actual cuemakers and industry people who do pool as a profession and not as amateurs...

Spring rates/COR and Spin/Speed ratio are still not even part of the discussion because of the old information that was published as science...

Contact time was previously said to be too short for anything done during the stroke to matter....

Things keep changing... The pros keep shooting at world class levels and I will keep testing to establish a better understanding while talking to them...

Nothing we have done is published and no one has looked at it here in the states in an even remotely close way aside from Tony at Blackboar.... As long as tip to cueball contact is treated as a solid impact what you read won't explain what happens except at the high end where tips are compressed into a solid regardless of hardness.......

Just the fact they don't know any of these things doesn't put an amatuer on the same level as pro players who don't know them... simply because of the vast number of hours they have put in refining their skills that an amateur has not..

I've learned pro players generally figure things from experience and it takes discussion to find those thing out because the vocabulary isn't in place... Could an amateur discover something? Absolutely but in the wide world of experience the chances are tiny in comparison.

In the US it seems every amateur thinks they could be a pro if only they quit their jobs and played 8 hours a day and it's hurting the game.... For the vast majority they are the guy watching Thursday night baseball on the couch drinking a beer thinking I could have done that... They have about the same chances as far as finding world class speed...

 

[BeiberLvr]

Sorry one stroke I will continue to disagree based upon my experiences in talking to actual cuemakers and industry people who do pool as a profession and not as amateurs...

Spring rates/COR and Spin/Speed ratio are still not even part of the discussion because of the old information that was published as science...

Contact time was previously said to be too short for anything done during the stroke to matter....

Things keep changing... The pros keep shooting at world class levels and I will keep testing to establish a better understanding while talking to them...

Nothing we have done is published and no one has looked at it here in the states in an even remotely close way aside from Tony at Blackboar.... As long as tip to cueball contact is treated as a solid impact what you read won't explain what happens except at the high end where tips are compressed into a solid regardless of hardness.......

Just the fact they don't know any of these things doesn't put an amatuer on the same level as pro players who don't know them... simply because of the vast number of hours they have put in refining their skills that an amateur has not..

I've learned pro players generally figure things from experience and it takes discussion to find those thing out because the vocabulary isn't in place... Could an amateur discover something? Absolutely but in the wide world of experience the chances are tiny in comparison.

In the US it seems every amateur thinks they could be a pro if only they quit their jobs and played 8 hours a day and it's hurting the game.... For the vast majority they are the guy watching Thursday night baseball on the couch drinking a beer thinking I could have done that... They have about the same chances as far as finding world class speed...

I'm curious.

How is that hurting the game?

 

[onepocketron]

IMO the softer tips are a little more forgiving if you put a bad stroke on the shot with regard to miscues and the like. I play with a fairly hard tip, and personally don't like the mushy feel of a soft tip. But that is just me.

 

[The Renfro]

I'm curious.

How is that hurting the game?

When you have world class players actually trying to provide insights and you have amateurs coming out saying "but what about me" there is a problem... You have been here long enough to know that Pro players and most industry members won't come on AZ and their is NO open line of social discourse currently aside from their own personal FB pages... This is not a usual thing for cuesports around the globe... In Asia and Europe a pro player is respected and listened to.. Here an APA 4 will argue with them if they have a 4 cent word that the pro didn't use... Doesn't even have to be a 5 cent one.......

 

[HawaiianEye]

Earl Strickland uses and Elk Master tip...so does Efren.

Some people like them pressed.

I've heard Earl say he uses and thinks a "soft" tip plays better.

 

[pt109]

I'm curious.

How is that hurting the game?

When you have world class players actually trying to provide insights and you have amateurs coming out saying "but what about me" there is a problem... You have been here long enough to know that Pro players and most industry members won't come on AZ and their is NO open line of social discourse currently aside from their own personal FB pages... This is not a usual thing for cuesports around the globe... In Asia and Europe a pro player is respected and listened to.. Here an APA 4 will argue with them if they have a 4 cent word that the pro didn't use... Doesn't even have to be a 5 cent one.......

I think that is the pros hurting their own game....
...they have been doing it for years.

Being a pro doesn't automatically make you a good poster

 

[The Renfro]

Earl Strickland uses and Elk Master tip...so does Efren.

Some people like them pressed.

I've heard Earl say he uses and thinks a "soft" tip plays better.

Actually Earl has not played Elks in years and the Elk I have from Efren tests at over 80...... Things change......

For years Efren played with Duds a friend of his did for him and the one I got in 2010 was a true dud and tested at 73... The ones they had with them this year at derby were likely fakes out of China since when I cut it it was full of some type of black rubber..... I have about 20 boxes of them I will sell cheap from my research....

 

[The Renfro]

I think that is the pros hurting their own game....
...they have been doing it for years.

Being a pro doesn't automatically make you a good poster

nor does having an account on AZ......

 

[Big Bad Bern]

On the last day in Vegas for the VNEA a couple years ago, I sat through a great conversation between Bob Meucci and Jerry Briesath about tips and cues. Gained a lot of useful info from respected sources and didn't open my mouth, just thanked them when they were done.

Experience does count for a lot in my opinion and when someone like Darren speaks it's worth listening, whether you agree or not.

Bern

 

[The Renfro]

On the last day in Vegas for the VNEA a couple years ago, I sat through a great conversation between Bob Meucci and Jerry Briesath about tips and cues. Gained a lot of useful info from respected sources and didn't open my mouth, just thanked them when they were done.

Experience does count for a lot in my opinion and when someone like Darren speaks it's worth listening, whether you agree or not.

Bern

Bob is another one who understands tips being a spring and we talked for a long time at expo last year about synergy before a lying piece of shit told him his tips were made in Florida and undercut pricing... Sadly he now is using tiger tips and those tips out of asia on his shafts but a tip swap is cheap action...

 

[HawaiianEye]

Actually Earl has not played Elks in years and the Elk I have from Efren tests at over 80...... Things change......

For years Efren played with Duds a friend of his did for him and the one I got in 2010 was a true dud and tested at 73... The ones they had with them this year at derby were likely fakes out of China since when I cut it it was full of some type of black rubber..... I have about 20 boxes of them I will sell cheap from my research....

So, what does Earl play with? It only was a few months ago when I heard him say it.

 

[HawaiianEye]

Yeah no.... I have never walked away from a discussion with a player at the pro level regarding tips where I came away without some added insight from a new perspective... It usually comes down to style of
play and their preferred ball speed and shaft choice that establishes the choice in tips and therefore colors their opinion....

Different shafts and different ball speeds are going to have different synergy with different tips/ spring rates.... Same shaft 2 different players and they may have totally different opinions on a tip....

An amateur may have a mental understanding of tips and "pool physics" but that doesn't mean that they have a concept equal to a professionals even if they have the same tip, same shaft and use the same ball speed because they won't have the refined stroke.. It's applied vs hypothetical.. It's like saying a local fiddle player knows the difference in a fiddle vs a Stradivarius as well as a concert violinist at the top of his art.. "Well they both play a tune"...

Darren's comment actually sheds light on his playing style... He tries to manage his game so there are no big strokes needed.. He can come with them when needed and is in the same vein as Alex, Oscar, Ralf and Corey... On the other side you have players like Shane, CJ, Earl and Shaw who seem to try and over power a table....

I'd suggest seeing which player plays your style and finding out what equipment they are actually using... What is advertised is not always the truth and these guys don't eat if they are missing...

I have spent 6 years testing tips and making them... I can tell you that different tips on different shafts will give you different results PLAYING... I can tell you that a stiff shaft with a soft tip will be totally different when you put a super soft on it even in deflection at lower than high speed.... I can give you hardness ratings and COR ratings and spring rates...

Does this mean I would discount Darren about a soft tip on a shaft I have never played that he relies on to be top 10 in the world? Not on my life.. Not today and likely not tomorrow........

I could have told you that 6 years ago and saved you the research.

 

[one stroke]

I could have told you that 6 years ago and saved you the research.

And so could of 10 thousand other people ,,


1

 

[john coloccia]

I like Darren and I'm usually rooting for him, but the statement is kind of ridiculous. Just how much "big stroke and cue power" do you need to play a game of pool?? Anyhow, I don't find game changing differences between hard tips and soft tips re: cue ball action. A little bit maybe, but not enough to worry about IMHO.