Defy Shaft and a Little Science Question

[MattPoland]

My brother bought a Defy shaft. It’s really different. We took our shafts off and just dropped them tip first on the table. My Revo bounced up some inches. His Defy shaft just landed with a thud, no bounce at all. Is that a sign that it has better energy transfer or worse? The dealer sold him on the idea that it was more. I’m kind of thinking that means it has “shock absorption” designed into it which would transfer less power.

Personally I assume the difference is irrelevant because the variance is still within the range of control of our arm strength using a traditional stroke.

I definitely can say the feel of the hit between the two are night and day. My Revo is like Diet Coke. That plinky/tinky hit is extremely jarring to most but has a flavor profile you look for and appreciate if you’re used to it. But there’s no denying the feel of the Defy is much more solid but gentle. It’s the exact opposite of a jarring experience maybe even feeling rubbery to a Diet Coke drinker like me. (Really leaning hard into this mixed metaphor)

I did a couple bar table deflection tests. Very unscientific. With a sample size of one hit with each. With a tip of sidespin, it did seem to me that the Revo had like an 1/8th inch of deflection and the Defy was closer to 1/4 inch. I played 10+ racks with his shaft and didn’t notice a difference in playability except when I need to 90 degree cut a ball by spinning off the rail. But that’s a shot entirely based on how calibrated your brain is to your shaft so that’s no surprise I missed it.

Overall I wouldn’t change shafts from my Revo because I bought it intending to have it be my last shaft for my life and intend to continue attuning to it long term. I would say those that choose the Defy are in good hands and will find much to appreciate with it.

It is quite different though so I’m curious if there’s any prevailing opinions about it from those that know it better than I do. I ask to expand my understanding as my brother and I have future conversations.

What do you think?

 

[boogieman]

Tip hardness on both shafts?

 

[MajorMiscue]

I own a Defy and a Meucci carbon pro. I understand exactly what you are talking about. The Defy is like a dead blow hammer, solid but with little "feel". I prefer the Meucci but more for the slick feel of the "regular" cf shaft over the glossy finish on the Defy.

 

[MattPoland]

Tip hardness on both shafts?

I have the stock victory tip on the Revo. My brother had a layered Kamui tip (not black). I want to think it was a soft. For a layered tip, his showed some signs of initial mushrooming.

 

[straightline]

Where does the energy go?

 

[justnum]

Sounds like a great test for detecting counterfeits.

 

[kling&allen]

My brother bought a Defy shaft. It’s really different. We took our shafts off and just dropped them tip first on the table. My Revo bounced up some inches. His Defy shaft just landed with a thud, no bounce at all. Is that a sign that it has better energy transfer or worse? The dealer sold him on the idea that it was more. I’m kind of thinking that means it has “shock absorption” designed into it which would transfer less power.

Personally I assume the difference is irrelevant because the variance is still within the range of control of our arm strength using a traditional stroke.

I definitely can say the feel of the hit between the two are night and day. My Revo is like Diet Coke. That plinky/tinky hit is extremely jarring to most but has a flavor profile you look for and appreciate if you’re used to it. But there’s no denying the feel of the Defy is much more solid but gentle. It’s the exact opposite of a jarring experience maybe even feeling rubbery to a Diet Coke drinker like me. (Really leaning hard into this mixed metaphor)

I did a couple bar table deflection tests. Very unscientific. With a sample size of one year with each. With a tip of sidespin, it did seem to me that the Revo had like an 1/8th inch of deflection and the Defy was closer to 1/4 inch. I played 10+ racks with his shaft and didn’t notice a difference in playability except when I need to 90 degree cut a ball by spinning off the rail. But that’s a shot entirely based on how calibrated your brain is to your shaft so that’s no surprise I missed it.

Overall I wouldn’t change shafts from my Revo because I bought it intending to have it be my last shaft for my life and intend to continue attuning to it long term. I would say those that choose the Defy are in good hands and will find much to appreciate with it.

It is quite different though so I’m curious if there’s any prevailing opinions about it from those that know it better than I do. I ask to expand my understanding as my brother and I have future conversations.

What do you think?

Here's the patent application on the Defy shaft:

US20210077896A1 - Cue with kinetic energy absorbing insert - Google Patents

A cue for billiard sports that has a butt section, a joint collar, and a shaft section that has a kinetic energy absorbing insert located in the shaft section of the cue. A shaft section that has a kinetic energy absorbing insert that may be connected to an existing joint collar and butt section...

patents.google.com

It has a "kinetic energy absorbing insert" "made of a structural elastomeric material" like butyl rubber or "SMAC SMACTANE® SP Damping Material." At least in the drawings, this insert is in the middle of the shaft:

From the Revo teardowns I've seen, it's all foam filled. So this butyl rubber insert is the reason for the difference in feel. McDermott mentions this patent application, and SMACTANE, on its website, so the drawing is probably accurate.

For what its worth, I personally like using a long maple plug as the joint plug instead of a phenolic insert. I don't like the way the pin feels screwing into phenloic and the maple plug seems less tinky sounding than just phenloic and foam.

 

[hang-the-9]

My brother bought a Defy shaft. It’s really different. We took our shafts off and just dropped them tip first on the table. My Revo bounced up some inches. His Defy shaft just landed with a thud, no bounce at all. Is that a sign that it has better energy transfer or worse? The dealer sold him on the idea that it was more. I’m kind of thinking that means it has “shock absorption” designed into it which would transfer less power.

Personally I assume the difference is irrelevant because the variance is still within the range of control of our arm strength using a traditional stroke.

I definitely can say the feel of the hit between the two are night and day. My Revo is like Diet Coke. That plinky/tinky hit is extremely jarring to most but has a flavor profile you look for and appreciate if you’re used to it. But there’s no denying the feel of the Defy is much more solid but gentle. It’s the exact opposite of a jarring experience maybe even feeling rubbery to a Diet Coke drinker like me. (Really leaning hard into this mixed metaphor)

I did a couple bar table deflection tests. Very unscientific. With a sample size of one year with each. With a tip of sidespin, it did seem to me that the Revo had like an 1/8th inch of deflection and the Defy was closer to 1/4 inch. I played 10+ racks with his shaft and didn’t notice a difference in playability except when I need to 90 degree cut a ball by spinning off the rail. But that’s a shot entirely based on how calibrated your brain is to your shaft so that’s no surprise I missed it.

Overall I wouldn’t change shafts from my Revo because I bought it intending to have it be my last shaft for my life and intend to continue attuning to it long term. I would say those that choose the Defy are in good hands and will find much to appreciate with it.

It is quite different though so I’m curious if there’s any prevailing opinions about it from those that know it better than I do. I ask to expand my understanding as my brother and I have future conversations.

What do you think?

It is most likely the interior construction rather than how much energy transfer it will have. The same thing happens if you remove the rubber bumper from a cue, the hit feels very different since the vibration is not absorbed the same way by the cue.

Revo is one of the lowest deflection shafts out there, you are not likely to find anything that deflects less, I know I have not yet.

 

[jtompilot]

My brother bought a Defy shaft. It’s really different. We took our shafts off and just dropped them tip first on the table. My Revo bounced up some inches. His Defy shaft just landed with a thud, no bounce at all. Is that a sign that it has better energy transfer or worse? The dealer sold him on the idea that it was more. I’m kind of thinking that means it has “shock absorption” designed into it which would transfer less power.

Personally I assume the difference is irrelevant because the variance is still within the range of control of our arm strength using a traditional stroke.

I definitely can say the feel of the hit between the two are night and day. My Revo is like Diet Coke. That plinky/tinky hit is extremely jarring to most but has a flavor profile you look for and appreciate if you’re used to it. But there’s no denying the feel of the Defy is much more solid but gentle. It’s the exact opposite of a jarring experience maybe even feeling rubbery to a Diet Coke drinker like me. (Really leaning hard into this mixed metaphor)

I did a couple bar table deflection tests. Very unscientific. With a sample size of one year with each. With a tip of sidespin, it did seem to me that the Revo had like an 1/8th inch of deflection and the Defy was closer to 1/4 inch. I played 10+ racks with his shaft and didn’t notice a difference in playability except when I need to 90 degree cut a ball by spinning off the rail. But that’s a shot entirely based on how calibrated your brain is to your shaft so that’s no surprise I missed it.

Overall I wouldn’t change shafts from my Revo because I bought it intending to have it be my last shaft for my life and intend to continue attuning to it long term. I would say those that choose the Defy are in good hands and will find much to appreciate with it.

It is quite different though so I’m curious if there’s any prevailing opinions about it from those that know it better than I do. I ask to expand my understanding as my brother and I have future conversations.

What do you think?

I have three 12.4 Revo’s and the Defy 12.0
My unscientific tests say the Defy has less deflection however I just can’t seem to get used to the hit compared to the Revo’s crispness. I also couldn’t get used to three other carbon shafts I bought and sold, so there’s that. Anyone want to buy a lightly used Defy?

 

[MattPoland]

I have three 12.4 Revo’s and the Defy 12.0
My unscientific tests say the Defy has less deflection however I just can’t seem to get used to the hit compared to the Revo’s crispness. I also couldn’t get used to three other carbon shafts I bought and sold, so there’s that. Anyone want to buy a lightly used Defy?

I’ve had the Revo 12.9, 12.4, Cynergy 12.5, and Revo 11.8. The 11.8 is my home. I knew the Cynergy was more deflection but was a more familiar softer hit. But at the same time I’ve played countless gambling sets with the Revo and at this point I know it like I know Christmas at my mom’s house. If the Defy was clearly the most unique hit I have seen. I might call it squishy. Like the shaft equivalent of a soft Le Pro tip. The prior comment of it being like a dead blow hammer is extremely apt. I just don’t know what to make of it. We have different ideas of what the deflection is and I may very well be the one that’s wrong. It’s just an interesting anomaly to me.

 

[MattPoland]

It is most likely the interior construction rather than how much energy transfer it will have. The same thing happens if you remove the rubber bumper from a cue, the hit feels very different since the vibration is not absorbed the same way by the cue.

Revo is one of the lowest deflection shafts out there, you are not likely to find anything that deflects less, I know I have not yet.

To be honest, I did feel like “it played like a pool stick.” Not one I pulled off the wall with a shitty slip-on tip, loose rod, and a hollow butt with no bumper. Because playing with that is simply playing pool with a weight around your neck dragging you to frustration. But as foreign as if felt, I could still play. I was making moves that showcased my talent just the same as I’ve ever been able to. It just felt “different”.

 

[straightline]

Here's the patent application on the Defy shaft:

US20210077896A1 - Cue with kinetic energy absorbing insert - Google Patents

A cue for billiard sports that has a butt section, a joint collar, and a shaft section that has a kinetic energy absorbing insert located in the shaft section of the cue. A shaft section that has a kinetic energy absorbing insert that may be connected to an existing joint collar and butt section...

patents.google.com

It has a "kinetic energy absorbing insert" "made of a structural elastomeric material" like butyl rubber or "SMAC SMACTANE® SP Damping Material." At least in the drawings, this insert is in the middle of the shaft:

View attachment 660102

From the Revo teardowns I've seen, it's all foam filled. So this butyl rubber insert is the reason for the difference in feel. McDermott mentions this patent application, and SMACTANE, on its website, so the drawing is probably accurate.

For what its worth, I personally like using a long maple plug as the joint plug instead of a phenolic insert. I don't like the way the pin feels screwing into phenloic and the maple plug seems less tinky sounding than just phenloic and foam.

Obviously something in that scheme does the trick but I can't see the total mass not responding to the tip recoil.

 

[kling&allen]

Obviously something in that scheme does the trick but I can't see the total mass not responding to the tip recoil.

I don't have a defy, and haven't ever used one, but it looks like the rubber would absorb some of the longitudinal impact waves generated by the tip strike to cause the dead feel described above. If the rubber chunk is away from the tip, and that part of the shaft is just foam filled, the end mass would be reduced to provide some amount of lower deflection. (And just to the be clear, I'm not saying any of this matters)

 

[garczar]

My brother bought a Defy shaft. It’s really different. We took our shafts off and just dropped them tip first on the table. My Revo bounced up some inches. His Defy shaft just landed with a thud, no bounce at all. Is that a sign that it has better energy transfer or worse? The dealer sold him on the idea that it was more. I’m kind of thinking that means it has “shock absorption” designed into it which would transfer less power.

Personally I assume the difference is irrelevant because the variance is still within the range of control of our arm strength using a traditional stroke.

I definitely can say the feel of the hit between the two are night and day. My Revo is like Diet Coke. That plinky/tinky hit is extremely jarring to most but has a flavor profile you look for and appreciate if you’re used to it. But there’s no denying the feel of the Defy is much more solid but gentle. It’s the exact opposite of a jarring experience maybe even feeling rubbery to a Diet Coke drinker like me. (Really leaning hard into this mixed metaphor)

I did a couple bar table deflection tests. Very unscientific. With a sample size of one hit with each. With a tip of sidespin, it did seem to me that the Revo had like an 1/8th inch of deflection and the Defy was closer to 1/4 inch. I played 10+ racks with his shaft and didn’t notice a difference in playability except when I need to 90 degree cut a ball by spinning off the rail. But that’s a shot entirely based on how calibrated your brain is to your shaft so that’s no surprise I missed it.

Overall I wouldn’t change shafts from my Revo because I bought it intending to have it be my last shaft for my life and intend to continue attuning to it long term. I would say those that choose the Defy are in good hands and will find much to appreciate with it.

It is quite different though so I’m curious if there’s any prevailing opinions about it from those that know it better than I do. I ask to expand my understanding as my brother and I have future conversations.

What do you think?

Defy is by far my least favorite of all the CF shafts i tested. Too quiet, dead feel and horrible finish.

 

[skiergd011013]

Defy is by far my least favorite of all the CF shafts i tested. Too quiet, dead feel and horrible finish.

i went with pechauer rogue because I heard the revo and others have a metallic ping sound and a strange hit feel. The rogue doesnt feel much different than my old mcdermott wood gcore shaft. I was nervous to spend so much money on a cf shaft fearing that it would feel alien to me and I wouldnt be able to play with it. Well, I loved it right out of the box. I also dont like the wavy pattern on the defy shaft. Anything like that on a shaft catches my eye duriing stroking and distracts me. I actually had to use a toothpick and remove the tiny "rogue" white engraving filler on my shaft because it was catching my eye. It seems like the rogue often gets overlooked on here. Its a great shaft.

 

[336Robin]

My brother bought a Defy shaft. It’s really different. We took our shafts off and just dropped them tip first on the table. My Revo bounced up some inches. His Defy shaft just landed with a thud, no bounce at all. Is that a sign that it has better energy transfer or worse? The dealer sold him on the idea that it was more. I’m kind of thinking that means it has “shock absorption” designed into it which would transfer less power.

Personally I assume the difference is irrelevant because the variance is still within the range of control of our arm strength using a traditional stroke.

I definitely can say the feel of the hit between the two are night and day. My Revo is like Diet Coke. That plinky/tinky hit is extremely jarring to most but has a flavor profile you look for and appreciate if you’re used to it. But there’s no denying the feel of the Defy is much more solid but gentle. It’s the exact opposite of a jarring experience maybe even feeling rubbery to a Diet Coke drinker like me. (Really leaning hard into this mixed metaphor)

I did a couple bar table deflection tests. Very unscientific. With a sample size of one hit with each. With a tip of sidespin, it did seem to me that the Revo had like an 1/8th inch of deflection and the Defy was closer to 1/4 inch. I played 10+ racks with his shaft and didn’t notice a difference in playability except when I need to 90 degree cut a ball by spinning off the rail. But that’s a shot entirely based on how calibrated your brain is to your shaft so that’s no surprise I missed it.

Overall I wouldn’t change shafts from my Revo because I bought it intending to have it be my last shaft for my life and intend to continue attuning to it long term. I would say those that choose the Defy are in good hands and will find much to appreciate with it.

It is quite different though so I’m curious if there’s any prevailing opinions about it from those that know it better than I do. I ask to expand my understanding as my brother and I have future conversations.

What do you think?

I played one pocket with a Defy for several hours and felt worn out because it took a lot more effort to move the ball.

The way it played was fine, the hit was fine but its dampening effects were colossal.

I am now playing with a 15 and 1/2 ounce cue and am very happy with it. I can stroke the ball a little harder without the cue ball getting lost.

It was a small adjustment vs. the adjustment it would take with the Defy but if you're often over hitting the ball with 19 ounce cues this so far is the best answer to the fast as hell cloth being put out today. I think Defy tried to build on that concept but it went way too far in my opinion.

 

[MitchAlsup]

My brother bought a Defy shaft. It’s really different. We took our shafts off and just dropped them tip first on the table. My Revo bounced up some inches. His Defy shaft just landed with a thud, no bounce at all. Is that a sign that it has better energy transfer or worse? The dealer sold him on the idea that it was more. I’m kind of thinking that means it has “shock absorption” designed into it which would transfer less power.

I do not think this test illustrates the kind of thing we think of as energy transfer, it illustrates the lateral transfer of energy, not longitudinal.

 

[straightline]

I don't have a defy, and haven't ever used one, but it looks like the rubber would absorb some of the longitudinal impact waves generated by the tip strike to cause the dead feel described above. If the rubber chunk is away from the tip, and that part of the shaft is just foam filled, the end mass would be reduced to provide some amount of lower deflection. (And just to the be clear, I'm not saying any of this matters)

I can see rubber deadening the shock harmonics but if you drop the shaft tip first onto a hard surface, the shock harmonics should have little to do with the recoil distance.

 

[buckshotshoey]

I’ve had the Revo 12.9, 12.4, Cynergy 12.5, and Revo 11.8. The 11.8 is my home. I knew the Cynergy was more deflection but was a more familiar softer hit. But at the same time I’ve played countless gambling sets with the Revo and at this point I know it like I know Christmas at my mom’s house. If the Defy was clearly the most unique hit I have seen. I might call it squishy. Like the shaft equivalent of a soft Le Pro tip. The prior comment of it being like a dead blow hammer is extremely apt. I just don’t know what to make of it. We have different ideas of what the deflection is and I may very well be the one that’s wrong. It’s just an interesting anomaly to me.

The deflection differences may very well be the different bridge lengths you both are using.

 

[tim913]

I’ve had the Revo 12.9, 12.4, Cynergy 12.5, and Revo 11.8. The 11.8 is my home. I knew the Cynergy was more deflection but was a more familiar softer hit. But at the same time I’ve played countless gambling sets with the Revo and at this point I know it like I know Christmas at my mom’s house. If the Defy was clearly the most unique hit I have seen. I might call it squishy. Like the shaft equivalent of a soft Le Pro tip. The prior comment of it being like a dead blow hammer is extremely apt. I just don’t know what to make of it. We have different ideas of what the deflection is and I may very well be the one that’s wrong. It’s just an interesting anomaly to me.

LePro makes a soft tip? I know it varies from tip to tip but mine are usually pretty hard