Diamond 7' ProAm corner pockets

[Bamacues]

What could be the cause for extreme rejection of balls shot into the corner of a 7' Diamond table, with 4 1/2" pockets (I was in error when I said 4 1/4").

I know the corner pockets are always tough, but this table will reject pocket speed, center ball, if the ball makes contact with the rail pad.

The room owner and I shoot on the table weekly. He is concerned, and plans to have the table checked soon.

He said it has rail pads or ends etc on the rails, to tighten the pockets (don't shoot me if I use the wrong terms...).

At any rate, the rejection percentage is unreal. We are both good players. Any kind of harder shot with just bounce back and forth, and rattle but not fall.

Is it possible, over time, for the rail ends/caps to develop a concave spot/section that changes the angle of ball bounce?

Glen (King Cobra) installed these tables several years ago. They are well-maintained, over all.

Thanks,
Joe

 

[rexus31]

What could be the cause for extreme rejection of balls shot into the corner of a 7' Diamond table, with 4 1/4" pockets?

I know the corner pockets are always tough, but this table will reject pocket speed, center ball, if the ball makes contact with the rail pad.

The room owner and I shoot on the table weekly. He is concerned, and plans to have the table checked soon.

He said it has rail pads or ends etc on the rails, to tighten the pockets (don't shoot me if I use the wrong terms...).

At any rate, the rejection percentage is unreal. We are both good players. Any kind of harder shot with just bounce back and forth, and rattle but not fall.

Is it possible, over time, for the rail ends/caps to develop a concave spot/section that changes the angle of ball bounce?

Glen (King Cobra) installed these tables several years ago. They are well-maintained, over all.

Thanks,
Joe

Does Glen service the tables or someone else?

If you brush a rail on a tight Diamond, even with pocket speed, the ball will hang. We have a room here with three tight 9' Diamonds and that is the case. You can't brush the rail because the shelf is too deep.

 

[boogieman]

I'm not a mechanic but am asking a couple things that may help them.

Did the table come with 4.25" pockets or did someone add facings to it at a later date?

I don't know if this would cause it, but are the rail bolts properly torqued to 15 foot pounds? I know this can cause the table to bank short. I doubt it could cause balls to hang unless it was extreme but figured I'd ask.

Pros cut is 4.5" so anything less you better be hitting dead perfect. Watch the pros play on the 4.25" predator tables and they even hang balls. I believe predator tables have shorter shelves. 4.25" with deeper pocket shelves like a diamond are magnitudes tougher than 4.5". With brand new cloth pockets are more forgiving. If the cloth is dirty or even really humid this can make the table play much tougher.

 

[Bamacues]

Glen (Real King Cobra) installed the tables. I don't know how the rails came.

We have torqued all rail bolts to the proper spec. The balls shot down the rail are clean.. they touch nothing.

The last one that made us realize something MIGHT be off was an 18" CLEAN shot, down the rail, pocket speed..

It went straight into the back side of the pocket/rail cap, and bounced straight across into the other rail cap, stopping on the shelf.

Glen installed these tables probably 6-7 years ago... maybe more. The owner of the room is religious about maintenance.. he is a 7/9 skill level player.

The tables have always been tight, but honest. We have played on them for years... best tables in the area, imo. Something has changed, recently...

We just wondered if the rail ends or rail caps (if any) could become soft or worn in the center... like could a divot develop in the center that would change the angle of the bounce...

 

[rexus31]

Sounds like facings were stacked or thicker than 3/16" facings were used. If so, it will rattle balls like an Olhausen. When you tighten pockets, you also have to reduce the pocket opening angle. I believe Diamond Pro Cut pockets (4.5") come with 142° pocket cuts. 4.25" pockets at 142° will play brutal and rattle balls hit down the rail with any pace. 4.25" pockets should have a 141° or 140° cut. The correct way to tighten pockets is to extend the subrail, recut the pockets and top it off with a standard (3/16") facing. Reducing a Pro Cut (or League Cut) table by .25" means you have 5/16" facings. I would say 1/4" is the max you want to go. Now you have a double whammy. A dead pocket at too wide an angle. I'd get Glen back out there to see what's going on. My money is on the guy servicing the tables might not know what he's doing.

 

[Bamacues]

Sounds like facings were stacked or thicker than 3/16" facings were used. If so, it will rattle balls like an Olhausen. When you tighten pockets, you also have to reduce the pocket opening angle. I believe Diamond Pro Cut pockets (4.5") come with 142° pocket cuts. 4.25" pockets at 142° will play brutal and rattle balls hit down the rail with any pace. 4.25" pockets should have a 141° or 140° cut. The correct way to tighten pockets is to extend the subrail, recut the pockets and top it off with a standard (3/16") facing. Reducing a Pro Cut (or League Cut) table by .25" means you have 5/16" facings. I would say 1/4" is the max you want to go. Now you have a double whammy. A dead pocket at too wide an angle. I'd get Glen back out there to see what's going on. My money is on the guy servicing the tables might not know what he's doing.

This is something new... the tables have not been "serviced" recently... they will be, soon. The tables have always been tight... however, they did not reject the balls. In particular, it is the 2 lower corner pockets on one table.

I am pretty certain that Real King Cobra knows what he is doing... they did not play like this, until recently. Nothing was changed... just wear & tear. Rails properly torqued, cloth in decent shape (soon to be recovered, but better than most places), very well maintained, clean room.

I am simply asking if the material can/do break down, over time, with this type action being the result.

 

[rexus31]

This is something new...

Nothing new, really.

the tables have not been "serviced" recently... they will be, soon. The tables have always been tight... however, they did not reject the balls. In particular, it is the 2 lower corner pockets on one table.

I am pretty certain that Real King Cobra knows what he is doing... they did not play like this, until recently. Nothing was changed... just wear & tear. Rails properly torqued, cloth in decent shape (soon to be recovered, but better than most places), very well maintained, clean room.

I am simply asking if the material can/do break down, over time, with this type action being the result.

If no one has touched the tables since RKC delivered them, it's anybody's guess what's going on. Could the facings be worn? It's possible, but I'm not sure worn facings would create the situation you are describing. I know one thing is for certain, if balls hit clean down the rail with pace are rattling, that's usually a symptom of the pocket angle being too wide or an incorrect down angle. Olhausens were notorious for this.

 

[Bamacues]

That is what is happening... we are both advanced skill level players. I am older... been playing since 1963.... probably hit a million balls or so.

I understand and respect that a ball that skips the rail might bounce out, and a ball hit too hard may bounce out... But I know what a "clean" hit feels and looks. Those are bouncing out at an incredible rate. It does sound like what you said...

 

[fastone371]

Everyone here should know this test. Line up three balls in a row frozen to each other and the rail, shoot at the rear ball at pocket speed then start adding pace and see what happens.

 

[boogieman]

That is what is happening... we are both advanced skill level players. I am older... been playing since 1963.... probably hit a million balls or so.

I understand and respect that a ball that skips the rail might bounce out, and a ball hit too hard may bounce out... But I know what a "clean" hit feels and looks. Those are bouncing out at an incredible rate. It does sound like what you said...

Honestly I'd give Glen @realkingcobra a call and discuss with him. He's pretty good at diagnosing stuff and would probably remember the table in question.

 

[realkingcobra]

What could be the cause for extreme rejection of balls shot into the corner of a 7' Diamond table, with 4 1/4" pockets?

I know the corner pockets are always tough, but this table will reject pocket speed, center ball, if the ball makes contact with the rail pad.

The room owner and I shoot on the table weekly. He is concerned, and plans to have the table checked soon.

He said it has rail pads or ends etc on the rails, to tighten the pockets (don't shoot me if I use the wrong terms...).

At any rate, the rejection percentage is unreal. We are both good players. Any kind of harder shot with just bounce back and forth, and rattle but not fall.

Is it possible, over time, for the rail ends/caps to develop a concave spot/section that changes the angle of ball bounce?

Glen (King Cobra) installed these tables several years ago. They are well-maintained, over all.

Thanks,
Joe

Who tighted the pockets?

 

[Bamacues]

I talked to Brian... they are 4 1/2"... I misunderstood, when we were talking. They are the same as when you left them.

Only recently, one table in particular (the one in the corner) is rejecting balls... anything from an angle seems to rattle...

The others are tough, but not as tough as the one table. Brian has a call in for them to be serviced/recovered, but not until he gets back off vacation.

We were simply discussing possible causes... primarily, can end caps/rails break down over time, etc... just hunting for reasons.

Basically, my question was simply, what are some issues that might develop over time that could cause a corner pocket to "reject" a good, clean strike that it normally accepted. Does the rubber in rails break down over time? Do the rail ends become worn or soft from years of striking? Just curiosities...

 

[rexus31]

Do the test mentioned above.

 

[realkingcobra]

I talked to Brian... they are 4 1/2"... I misunderstood, when we were talking. They are the same as when you left them.

Only recently, one table in particular (the one in the corner) is rejecting balls... anything from an angle seems to rattle...

The others are tough, but not as tough as the one table. Brian has a call in for them to be serviced/recovered, but not until he gets back off vacation.

We were simply discussing possible causes... primarily, can end caps/rails break down over time, etc... just hunting for reasons.

Basically, my question was simply, what are some issues that might develop over time that could cause a corner pocket to "reject" a good, clean strike that it normally accepted. Does the rubber in rails break down over time? Do the rail ends become worn or soft from years of striking? Just curiosities...

Call me, we're going to have to play question and answer to figure out what's happening. 702-927-5689

 

[rexus31]

I talked to Brian... they are 4 1/2"... I misunderstood, when we were talking. They are the same as when you left them.

Only recently, one table in particular (the one in the corner) is rejecting balls... anything from an angle seems to rattle...

The others are tough, but not as tough as the one table. Brian has a call in for them to be serviced/recovered, but not until he gets back off vacation.

We were simply discussing possible causes... primarily, can end caps/rails break down over time, etc... just hunting for reasons.

Basically, my question was simply, what are some issues that might develop over time that could cause a corner pocket to "reject" a good, clean strike that it normally accepted. Does the rubber in rails break down over time? Do the rail ends become worn or soft from years of striking? Just curiosities...

After you've had a chance to speak with Glen, please reply with his diagnosis for future reference.

 

[a1712]

Call me, we're going to have to play question and answer to figure out what's happening. 702-927-5689

Glen, I'll give you a shout next week. I'm in Florida chasing Bass. Brian.

 

[Bamacues]

Glen, I'll give you a shout next week. I'm in Florida chasing Bass. Brian.

I hope you catch some monster Bass, Brian!!

Just keep an eye out for those huge snakes that are now supposed to be in the Everglades!!