Diamonds clearly bank shorter than most other if not all tables…so, why?

[maha]

they bank tighter. a lesser angle is never called a shorter angle but a tighter angle. so diamond tables do not bank shorter.

and a vase without flowers is really an urn.

and if you cannot just adjust to the simple difference you likely will not have an earn.

 

[JoeyInCali]

So he is saying it's not a rail issue it's a cushion issue.

They did fix the nose height issue with the blue label.

Was the height fixed or just the angle?

 

[JoeyInCali]

I don't think the wood material or rail construction have much to do with it. If the stiffness of the wood (laminated oak on a Diamond vs solid poplar on a GC) made much of a difference, I think we'd see a "bigger difference" where there is a rail bolt on a poplar rail vs where there is no rail bolt on a poplar rail.

ps, I think "butcher block" is the wrong term for what diamond does. Butcher block in cooking cutting boards usually refers to end grain sticking up in square blocks which is the best for the knife not whittling down the cutting board over time. Diamond rails are simply laminated together, with the grain cupping alternating direction, which is super common in any woodworking solid wood panel glue-up. The alternating grain orientation is to minimize warping over time.

I was at the Hopkins expo last month and talked a while about this with Philly's top table mechanic. He too was of the opinion that Diamond did everything great, except they completely ruined the rails bounce/angle, and he too could not believe a company of "players" would ever let those rails out the door for 30 years.

Anyway, he told me he has a durometer measuring instrument in his truck and measures every table he works on, and every new cushion he installs, and even keeps a scrap of the new cushions in his truck, all as a way to know if the cushions on a table are in need of replacement. He told me that Diamond cushions, both the Artemis on the 9' tables, and the Diamond black on the 7' tables, are about 10 durometer softer than just about every other brand of cushion. It was his opinion that this softness was the major cause of both the diamond fast speed, and the diamond short angle.

The.artemis cushions' contact area is.thicker than a Superspeed because the Artemis is more rounded while the super speed.is more narrow and pointy.
As the cloth gets older, the Artemis grabs the ball more.
Superspeed plays just as good when the cloth wears in.

 

[SeniorTom]

I would guess that there is more ob slide on a harder cushion then a more responsive rubber cushion, like I would imagine diamonds having. I have noticed difference in banking on the diamond tables as opposed to other tables at the pool hall. It seems like night and day to me.

 

[DynoDan]

I find the diamonds bank short under 45° maybe 50° and long over about 60°. Is it just me? Has anybody else noticed? Going 2 or 3 rails on a diamond banks the same as a gold crown depending on the exact shot. It’s because of the offsets of one acute and one obtuse angle. It’s really hard to explain. It’s just a “feel” thing.

Same here. Early 90s Diamond Pro with fresh Artemis & 760. Short angle/firm hit is accurate. Wide angle goes WAY long (corner-to-corner 3 cushion bank impossible). The old GCs I play out on are typically geometrically accurate regardless of angle. Go figure. The original cushions banked much better (should have kept them).

 

[jtompilot]

Brunswick must have done something different with the GC4 because there’s very little difference between the 4 and a blue label Diamond.

Will all the crybaby GC suckers just stop complaining. Go play some pool and get off your keyboard

 

[Willowbrook Wolfy]

Will all the crybaby GC suckers just stop complaining. Go play some pool and get off your keyboard

I think I’m getting better posting than I would playing. Sometimes you need a little break from play. And who’s bitching? We are just stating the facts here. Why do they even have the diamonds on the Diamonds?……

 

[book collector]

2 faces or a vase ???

View attachment 757820

Looks like George Washington and Ben Franklin locked in a lovers stare, probably not, but hey , it's not my dirty picture.

 

[iusedtoberich]

The.artemis cushions' contact area is.thicker than a Superspeed because the Artemis is more rounded while the super speed.is more narrow and pointy.
As the cloth gets older, the Artemis grabs the ball more.
Superspeed plays just as good when the cloth wears in.

That's all true. However, the 7' Diamond Black cushions are much more pointy than the 9' Artemis cushions. So I don't think that is the main culprit either. Taking that to an extreme, snooker table cushions are flat, no radius. They don't bounce like a Diamond either. They bouce about like any other pool table.

I'm curious what other table on Earth uses the Artemis cushions that Diamond chose 30 years ago. And how those tables play.

 

[Willowbrook Wolfy]

That's all true. However, the 7' Diamond Black cushions are much more pointy than the 9' Artemis cushions. So I don't think that is the main culprit either. Taking that to an extreme, snooker table cushions are flat, no radius. They don't bounce like a Diamond either. They bouce about like any other pool table.

I'd actually be curios what other table on Earth uses the Artemis cushions that Diamond chose 30 years ago. And how those tables play.

All the GCs at Red Shoes have custom rails with Artemis cushions. They bank fine with the custom GC rails. Maybe the diamond rails are stiffer or less stiff. Not sure if the table dimensions got a bit smaller though too. The shelves seem a little deep there.

Edit: after rereading some of the posts might very well be the height not the cushion.

 

[Jaden]

Why do they bank shorter? They absolutely bank noticeably and distinctly shorter - that’s a fact that any reasonable hobby player can easily know, so what do the better players and pro players do mentally to play on these or other brands to still play consistently great? Thx

Only red labels and initially they were designed that way to give a closer approximation to true angle in/angle out without adjusting for ball contact point on the rail.

Jaden

 

[iusedtoberich]

Brunswick must have done something different with the GC4 because there’s very little difference between the 4 and a blue label Diamond.

Will all the crybaby GC suckers just stop complaining. Go play some pool and get off your keyboard

Didn't you just say about a week or two ago you found a Diamond whose cushions played like garbage?

 

[Colonel]

You master the speed.
Diamonds are more accurate and predictable, than any other table I have played on, if you hit the shot with the correct speed, . Just beyond pocket speed is the correct starting point, for me. jmo
The more forcefully you hit the shot than it needs to be, the shorter it plays.

Shhhhhhh. Let them wallow in it.

 

[jtompilot]

All the

Didn't you just say about a week or two ago you found a Diamond whose cushions played like garbage?

All the red labels at Diamond billiards in Cape Coral bank poorly and most other reds. Some have been converted to Blue specs and they play good. Every now and the you’ll find the occasional blue that just doesn’t play right just like I’ve seen GC bounce and launch balls into the air.

 

[fastone371]

Artemis vs SuperSpeed cushions.
You put Artemis on Gold Crown, it will bank shorter too.

This is not true. I have Artemis on my GCI and it doesn't bank short, but the sub-rails were also modified so they are at the proper angle and can use currently available cushion profiles.

 

[fastone371]

The early Diamonds with the red label were all this way.
If the nose ht of the cushions are too high, it pinches the object ball and does not allot a natural rebound.

How could it be a high nose height causing the problem, wouldn't that cause the table to play slow? The 7' red label Diamonds banked very short and also played very, very fast.

 

[JolietJames]

I bought a new 9' ProAm about a year and a half ago.
It banks as true as both GCs I've owned in the past. I make NO adjustment for banks.
As far as I am concerned, the issue has been fixed.

 

[Badpenguin]

I would like to see some actual evidence that this is true on blue label diamonds produced over the last 10 or 15 years. I suspect that diamond rails are just more speed sensitive when it comes to banking. What I would really like to see is testing with a reproducible stroke, aim, and speed, something like a robot. Not some random internet guy claiming his stroke is the same every time and 100% consistent.

 

[fastone371]

I don't think the wood material or rail construction have much to do with it. If the stiffness of the wood (laminated oak on a Diamond vs solid poplar on a GC) made much of a difference, I think we'd see a "bigger difference" where there is a rail bolt on a poplar rail vs where there is no rail bolt on a poplar rail.

ps, I think "butcher block" is the wrong term for what diamond does. Butcher block in cooking cutting boards usually refers to end grain sticking up in square blocks which is the best for the knife not whittling down the cutting board over time. Diamond rails are simply laminated together, with the grain cupping alternating direction, which is super common in any woodworking solid wood panel glue-up. The alternating grain orientation is to minimize warping over time.

I was at the Hopkins expo last month and talked a while about this with Philly's top table mechanic. He too was of the opinion that Diamond did everything great, except they completely ruined the rails bounce/angle, and he too could not believe a company of "players" would ever let those rails out the door for 30 years.

Anyway, he told me he has a durometer measuring instrument in his truck and measures every table he works on, and every new cushion he installs, and even keeps a scrap of the new cushions in his truck, all as a way to know if the cushions on a table are in need of replacement. He told me that Diamond cushions, both the Artemis on the 9' tables, and the Diamond black on the 7' tables, are about 10 durometer softer than just about every other brand of cushion. It was his opinion that this softness was the major cause of both the diamond fast speed, and the diamond short angle.

If that were true about the rail durometer don't you think that my GCI with modified rails and Artemis cushions would play more like a short banking Diamond?

 

[iusedtoberich]

If that were true about the rail durometer don't you think that my GCI with modified rails and Artemis cushions play more like Diamond?

I don't know. We've been going around in circles as to the "why" for 30 years. And now we are going around in circles since the Blue came out on even "if" there is a problem.

I do think it could be figured out quite quickly with a few experiments at the Diamond factory and access to try a few different things.