"draw for show, follow for dough"

[crawfish]

I draw everything. Even on a stop shot, I draw it the length of the table and back. If I have a follow shot, I shoot it backwards so I can draw it. I even draw the break. I draw the ball so much they call me the artist.

 

[Andrew Manning]

I think the wisdom in this saying is that draw is touchier than follow, due to the friction of the cloth. In a draw shot, the spin on the ball is changing very rapidly between the cue hitting the CB and the CB hitting the OB. Misjudging the distance between the balls, or the speed required to keep the requisite amount of spin on the CB while it travels to the OB, means a very incorrect outcome of the shot. Particularly speed control suffers, because often you're trying to compromise between hitting the ball hard enough to keep the back-spin on it, and hitting it soft enough to get shape.

Whereas with follow, most follow shots are "natural roll" shots, where the ball is not sliding along the cloth at all, but instead rolling, for much or all of its travel time. This means the amount of forward spin is close to constant as the CB approaches the OB, and thus much more predictable and controllable. Amount of forward spin and amount of speed on the CB when it reaches the OB are not at odds with each other, so you don't have to compromise between spin and speed, you just hit the ball above center and strength of stroke controls both variables together.

But of course, that doesn't mean all follow shots are easier than all draw shots. It just means on average they're easier. Furthermore, very often one or the other just isn't an option, and you're forced either forwards or backwards. So you still need to rely on judgment rather than catchphrases to decide how to play the shot in front of you.

-Andrew

 

[Patrick Johnson]

... IMO, there is no wisdom in that saying.

... if I have ball-in-hand, for all my dough, and I am faced with a shot where I could legitimately use follow or draw, I would follow the ball

There's no wisdom in it, but you do it?

pj
chgo

 

[Jude Rosenstock]

Am I the only one that can remember what it's like to be a beginner? I mean, c'mon already!!! The fact is, any beginner will be able to answer this question for you without hesitation. Follow is easier. Now, I will agree after the years of training we've all had, we've become very familiar with the intricacies of draw but it would be foolish to forget how finite our position can be when we follow.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

"draw for show, follow for dough"

Is there any wisdom in this cliche ... ?

Draw is less accurate and more prone to error (for one thing, because you have to hit it harder), but you don't usually get equally good shape either way so it isn't an automatic choice. So the cliche is too cut-and-dried, but it still has meaning: since follow is easier and more accurate, it pays to always consider it as a possibility and not to fall into the rookie habit of mostly choosing draw because it looks so good. Even when the shape you get from follow isn't quite as good as the shape you might get from draw, follow is often the right choice because it's more reliable.

pj
chgo

 

[Jimmy M.]

There's no wisdom in it, but you do it?

pj
chgo

If you break my post apart and quote two things that I said, leaving everything else out, yeah, I contradicted myself.

And what do I "do"? If I am faced with a shot where either follow, or draw, would be a good choice, I'd use follow? Is that what I "do"?

How often is that the case? I'm not going to follow the ball if the shot calls for draw and, in most cases, one would be a clear choice over the other. So, if the saying was "If you can go either way, draw for show, follow for dough", or, "all things being equal, draw for show, follow for dough", then there might be some wisdom in it. Otherwise, I think it's silly. You shoot the best shot for the particular situation.

 

[Jimmy M.]

Even when the shape you get from follow isn't quite as good as the shape you might get from draw, follow is often the right choice because it's more reliable.

pj
chgo

It's funny that you quote my post, try to make it look like I'm contradicting myself by omitting more than half of what I said, act like you're an authority on pool, then post something like this. Don't worry, buddy. I think I understand now.

 

[alstl]

It isn't that people can't draw. Mike Sigel addressed this issue on the latest IPT webcast. Either Manolo or Morris, I can't remember which, had an option to draw or follow one rail on a shot. Sigel couldn't tell if he had an angle and thought he would have to draw and explained that it was easier to control the cue ball with follow. It isn't that it is impossible to get position drawing the cue ball, sometimes there is no choice.

I was watching a 20 year old video of Louie gambling with a guy. Louie wasn't shy about showing off a little. He drew a circle on the table with chalk, slammed the ball in the corner, forced the cue ball with low outside across the table and back over to where he drew the circle.

 

[Tom M]

In my opinion overuse of the draw shot is one of the most common weaknesses in nine ball players games.

Hu

I agree, and as a relative beginner (got my first ever break and run against a real opponent last weekend) I notice my pattern decisions are overly biased towards draw shots. Watching the pros on TV, I always try to predict their shot selection and I often completely miss the simple follow solution that they play. It's a real eye opener and I'm now forcing myself to look for these shots before I resort to the draw - expecially the LONG draw, which I can do, but less reliably.

Tom

 

[thyme3421]

thanks man ..

the 30 dergee rule is also why I am a big fan of the drag shot.. hit bottom timed to run out of backspin the at same distance from the object ball that you want to follow with the cue ball after impact. it saves your ass on long end of table to end of table shots where you need gentle follow to get shape on the other corner at that end of the table.

I completely agree.
I can draw competently, but follow is always easier to predict. Less possibilities to go wrong. If I draw by hitting the cueball at 6:15 instead of dead on 6:00 I'm going to get a different reaction out of the cue... but with follow there's more room for error.
Maybe it's because I shape my tip to dime instead of nickle?

Softshot..... I like your signature.

 

[longhair]

I think a perfect example of someone who takes advantage of this would be a BIH situation like below. You go this way and so little can go wrong. If you draw, you're taking a bit of a risk - admittedly, a small risk but added risk nonetheless. Follow is more accurate and natural which means you're far less likely to miscue.

Interesting that you would pick this situation to illustrate. I, too would use follow here to limit the chance of error, but with BIH I would do it like this take advantage of the huge area of accepable positions and use the rails to help contol my cueball speed. I can expect to get exactly the angle I want by going this way, much more so than by shooting your shot or the draw shot.

CueTable Help

Shooting your shot I would worry that since the cueball must be so close to the 8 it might "skip" off of the 8, get a little air and not take the spin right.

On topic...I think that we are all in substatial agreement. All else equal, a follow shot is preferable to a draw shot, but all else is so rarely equal that it's almost meaningless. We always want to do the least work and take the least risk that gets the job done. For any given position there is a shot that is better than any other; sometimes that is a draw shot.

 

[Koop]

I think it's important to have both in the bag but I definitely prefer follow if I have the choice.
Speaking of, we were watching Rodney Morris play in Valley Forge(he is by far my favorite player to watch) and he follows nearly everything. I would say, in 3 complete matches, he followed about 95% of the time where either would have worked.

 

[champ2107]

here is a good read, I guess u can watch a match on u tube an count the draws and follows in a match and see what u get.

http://www.poolclinics.com/pdf/TS08.PDF

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Jimmy M:
If you break my post apart and quote two things that I said, leaving everything else out, yeah, I contradicted myself.

I think you contradicted yourself even if I left everything in, but I wasn't trying to bust your chops for it.

Me:
Even when the shape you get from follow isn't quite as good as the shape you might get from draw, follow is often the right choice because it's more reliable.

Jimmy M:
It's funny that you quote my post, try to make it look like I'm contradicting myself by omitting more than half of what I said, act like you're an authority on pool, then post something like this. Don't worry, buddy. I think I understand now.

No need to get all exercised, Jimmy. Sorry if I sounded rude.

pj
chgo

 

[cigardave]

I draw everything. Even on a stop shot, I draw it the length of the table and back. If I have a follow shot, I shoot it backwards so I can draw it. I even draw the break. I draw the ball so much they call me the artist.

Now, that's funny... rep to you, brother!!

 

[ironman]

Now, that's funny... rep to you, brother!!

It may sound weird, but I can;t think of a lot of sutuation where I play position to follow the ball. It sounds rather silly to send the cue ball twice the distance it needs to travel.

 

[longhair]

It may sound weird, but I can;t think of a lot of sutuation where I play position to follow the ball. It sounds rather silly to send the cue ball twice the distance it needs to travel.

Huh? twice the distance? what do you mean?

 

[Billy_Bob]

Two things:

1. What goes forward will hit a rail and come back. (You can go backwards by first going forwards!)

2. When the cue ball hits a rail at an angle, if there is a lot of "running english" (spin on the ball), this will increase the speed of the ball.

With the above said, many times you can get the cue ball to go forward after it hits the object ball and easily get all the way back down table MUCH easier than with a draw shot.

AND watch other players play who do not know how to shoot with follow. Watch the direction the cue ball goes after many of their shots. Many times the cue ball is going the exact direction it needs to go to get on their next ball, but it stops. Had they used a bit of follow and a bit more speed, the cue ball would have been right where they needed it!

BUT, try to teach one of these people follow or try to get them to practice it just once. They WILL NOT do this! The sad fact is that follow is one of the easiest things to learn! (Using follow and getting the cue ball to stop at various distances.) Very easy to learn!

Practice: Set cue ball out one diamond from short rail close to long rail. Set object ball 2 diamonds out and near long rail. Shoot OB into far corner pocket. Shooting the same exact shot...

1. Stop shot (cue ball stops where OB was).
2. Leave cue ball 1 diamond past where object ball was.
3. Leave cue ball 2 diamonds past where object ball was.
4. Leave cue ball 3 diamonds past where object ball was.
Etc...

Leave cue ball at far rail and stop.
Cue ball goes all the way to far rail and comes back.

You get more follow by hitting higher up on the ball, less follow by hitting lower down. More follow through or speed also gets more follow.

Once you learn this (just a few days of practice), you can leave the cue ball where the OB was. Leave the cue ball at the side pocket. Or leave the cue ball at the other end of the table. So easy!

Another thing is a common 8-ball situation. Your last ball ball is left one diamond out from a corner pocket and the 8 ball is on the short rail at the opposite end of the table and you have ball-in-hand. I see many players shoot their object ball into the closest corner pocket and then have to bank the 8. WRONG! Shoot the object ball into a corner pocket near the 8 and use follow to leave the cue ball down at that end of the table. Quite easy with a bit of practice!

Game winning stuff!

 

[Jimmy M.]

Why use follow OR draw? I mean, it's much easier to execute a stop shot than either of those, isn't it?

 

[Patrick Johnson]

You get more follow by hitting higher up on the ball, less follow by hitting lower down.

This is true in principle, but for shots where the OB is more than a foot or so away from the CB, friction between the CB and the cloth is likely to make the CB achieve "natural roll" before it hits the OB, so you get pretty much the same amount of follow no matter how high you hit it (for shots of the same speed).

More follow through or speed also gets more follow.

I don't think more follow through matters.

More speed does produce more follow because you get faster natural roll (and that means more follow spin after hitting the OB).

pj
chgo