sicbinature said:Ronnie kicks better than Efren? Don't think so.
In One Pocket, YES!
sicbinature said:Ronnie kicks better than Efren? Don't think so.
hemicudas said:I think most SHOULD agree that no one in history kicks better than Efren.
jay helfert said:How good did Ronnie play? DAMN GOOD! Too dominate One Pocket in an era of many great players is quite an accomplishment. And, in my opinion, those great players (Jersey Red, Cornbread, Kelly, Shorty, Ervolino, Taylor, Bugs) were every bit as good as the best players today.
I couldnt agree more.
Jay:Could Ronnie bank? He played a ball (10-8 or 8-7) under Bugs.
No, Jay, I played Ronnie 9 to 7 banks in Calif. He was a great banker playing One Pocket. He didnt have a clue playing the game of banks.
Jay:Moves? He had them all, and could probably teach Effie a few things. Run out ability? Forget about eight and out. Ronnie usually had to run ten and out to win. And he ran the ten over and over.
I played Ronnie his 10 to my 8 in Hot Springs, AR. He ran 10 and out on me six games in a row. One of the games he owed one and had to run eleven. I didnt stick around to see game seven.
Jay:Combinations? Not even close between Ronnie and Efren. Efren wouldn't even shoot the combinations Ronnie would fire at. Knowledge of the pack? Again Ronnie is the favorite here.
I cant disagree.
Jay:Kicking ability? Sorry, I have to give the nod to Ronnie once again. Over and over again, he would kick his way out of traps or begin runs with an amazing kick.
The proviso you should have included, Jay is, Ronnie was the best OFFENSIVE KICKER ever. Efren is the greatest kicker in the history of pool, but Ronnie used kicks to make balls and run out, he had more imagination with his kicks.
Jay: Ronnie had the heart to bury a guy when he had 'em down. He was a fearless gambler. And no bet was too big for him. In fact, the higher the bet, the better he played. Once again, Ronnie had HEART!
Something nobody hardly ever talks about is competive spirit. When you get on the table with someone, and the air around you feels like you are under water and your body feels like it is being attacked by a thousand gremlins, that is an indication that you are attempting to play someone with a monstrous competetive spirit. That's what is was like to play Ronnie or Bugs or Artie. Efren hasnt had to deal with that. IMO there has been no one around like that in Efies era. He has dominated uncontestedly.
Jay:So what does Efren do better than Ronnie? He can run balls when they are down table better than anyone I've ever seen. His position play is without equal.
That is probably his strongest suit! And maybe the best explanation of his advantage. When I played Efren, and when I shot balls up the table, I hit them with a speed so that they would freeze to the back rails or lay awfully close. If the ball was a diamond off the back rail, Efren could get behind it and make it.
Jay:So who do I think is the better player. It is like comparing Nicklaus and Tiger. My personal belief is that the Ronnie of the 70's would have made Efren's head spin. He had a way of taking the heart out of a guy. Efren has a way of looking for the exit if the game looks a little too tough. Ronnie had absolutely no quit in him. He was a bulldog!
With the 10 to 8 spot in Chicago, I beat Ronnie the first 11 games in a row for $200 a game. He did not quit, and ended up winning six games back!
Jay:And if anyone believes that Efren could have spotted Ronnie, they're dreaming.
Better player? Efren of course. But who would beat who is the question.
Another thing nobody mentions is Bugs, Ronnie and Artie would be learning from Efren as they played over a period of time.
Who would I bet on? I would be betting with my heart, and of course I would go with my guys, and it wouldnt be the first time I could get broke.
the Beard
PS
Quote Hermicudas: For over 20 years, nobody would play him even-up one pocket. Facts speak for themselves, in 1971 Ronnie grabbed the microphone at the beginning of the Hustlers Tournament in Johnston City Illinois, offered everybody there 10 to 8 in one pocket --no takers.
Since I was there in 71, along with me, was Harold Worst, Bugs Rucker and Eddie Taylor. Now I couldnt have used 10 to 8 but what about them?
Island Drive said:Except "in the air" Ronnie would 'own em'. I saw Ronnie run 8 and out two in a row in the air giving a guy 8/5, it was absurd to watch, one could not even concieve doing this. I have to agree on the banking issue, RA the first guy I ever heard call it 'Whitey' was rock solid at the bank, in more ways than one.
Reading Jay's and Island's comments made me recall one very important facet of Ronnie's game which would just about even the scale, or even tip it his way against Efren -- hypothetically-- with both of them in their prime. In an Email from John H., it all came back to me:Island Drive said:I never saw a person like Ronnie move more balls at once offensively, it was common to see 8 or 9 balls move all towards Ronnies hole on one shot, and because he was so good he also learned the game one handed, in the air (he was the best I ever saw) on a 9' table just to get action. He had carisma and an incredible gift of gab. I looked at him as the golden bear of our era, and what an entertainer, when there was action and RA was involved you'd better watch your wallet especially if you were not directly involved in the game.
jay helfert said:First of all, I know Ronnie Scott and he is NOT the final authority on Ronnie's game, or anything else for that matter. He is very opinionated and more often way off base in my own opinion. He could play a little himself once upon a time.
How good did Ronnie play? DAMN GOOD! Too dominate One Pocket in an era of many great players is quite an accomplishment. And, in my opinion, those great players (Jersey Red, Cornbread, Kelly, Shorty, Ervolino, Taylor, Bugs) were every bit as good as the best players today. I'd like to hear from Buddy, Allen H., Sigel, Nick and Rempe who all saw them play.
Could Ronnie bank? He played a ball (10-8 or 8-7) under Bugs. Moves? He had them all, and could probably teach Effie a few things. Run out ability? Forget about eight and out. Ronnie usually had to run ten and out to win. And he ran the ten over and over. Shotmaking? No one could make a tough shot to continue a run or make the out ball like Ronnie.
Combinations? Not even close between Ronnie and Efren. Efren wouldn't even shoot the combinations Ronnie would fire at. Knowledge of the pack? Again Ronnie is the favorite here. Kicking ability? Sorry, I have to give the nod to Ronnie once again. Over and over again, he would kick his way out of traps or begin runs with an amazing kick.
And Ronnie had the heart to bury a guy when he had 'em down. He was a fearless gambler. And no bet was too big for him. In fact, the higher the bet, the better he played. Once again, Ronnie had HEART!
So what does Efren do better than Ronnie? He can run balls when they are down table better than anyone I've ever seen. His position play is without equal. I love how he lays the cue ball in the perfect opening time after time.
So who do I think is the better player. It is like comparing Nicklaus and Tiger. My personal belief is that the Ronnie of the 70's would have made Efren's head spin. He had a way of taking the heart out of a guy. Efren has a way of looking for the exit if the game looks a little too tough. Ronnie had absolutely no quit in him. He was a bulldog!
And if anyone believes that Efren could have spotted Ronnie, they're dreaming. Giving Ronnie the break was suicide. He would give up balls and take the break. It was one of his gaff games.
As beautiful as Efren's One Pocket game is, Ronnie had more weapons. And knew how to use them. Yes, Ronnie may have made the statement attributed to Billy. This is after Efren beat Ronnie giving him weight at Hard Times (8-7 and the break). But it was an old, tired Ronnie that Efren beat.
The 30 to 45 year old Ronnie may have been the best One Pocket player who ever lived. And that is my humble opinion.
titanic said:How would Efren have played with the same equipment Ronnie used to play with. There was no Simonis, no plastic balls.He might have only been a mediocre player under those different conditions.
HitHrdNDraw said:Efren vs. ronnie one pocket? who wouldnt pay to see that... Ronnie allen circa 1970's vs efren now... i think efren gives him at least 9-7/8-7 ... i don't think the old timers could fade the offensive force ... what used to be moves efren has turned into 8 and outs... We know what billy incardona thinks... what do you think?
Jerry, Millikens was the joint in Bellflower, wasn't it?titanic said:Yes. At Millikens he gave up that weight. If he did not make a ball on the break his opponent scored a bead on the wire.
hemicudas said:It is so easy to forget who invented “Offensive” one pocket, Ronnie Allen. Ronnie won many 9 ball tournaments as well as a few straight pool tourneys. Ronnie use to run 8 and out virtually like Efren does. I am not saying Ronnie would be the favorite but anyone who thinks Ronnie Allen would have needed 10-7 and alike are nuts. 9-8 or 8-7 is how they would have played.
Blackjack said:Agreed. Anybody that gives Ronnie Allen weight in 1 pocket is an idiot, I don't care who you are.
Robertduke said:Dint Bugs beat Ronnine heads up then give him 8 7 and still won.. Then at another tournament, didnt Ronnie ask for 9 7 and bugs says yes but ronnie back out.. Yes I think Efren could give him 10\8. I think Cliff could spot him a ball maybe 9\8 . Talkin about heart... wasnt efren down and made a great comeback on some crybaby american in a big race of 9 ball.. HAnds down EFREn, Bugs, or GRady Matthews, is the greatest onepocket players.. I would like to hear Freddys input on this subject but I doubt you will.. Hes still not a knocker.. And who ever said Ronnie can kick better then Efren is phuckin stupid with pool sense in the kickin department anyway.. Just like and A hole everybody has an opinion =)
Island Drive said:I never saw a person like Ronnie move more balls at once offensively, it was common to see 8 or 9 balls move all towards Ronnies hole on one shot, and because he was so good he also learned the game one handed, in the air (he was the best I ever saw) on a 9' table just to get action. He had carisma and an incredible gift of gab. I looked at him as the golden bear of our era, and what an entertainer, when there was action and RA was involved you'd better watch your wallet especially if you were not directly involved in the game.