English with Top or Bottom = Disaster???

[CurvedCue]

"I more I learn the less I know."

No, that's not Buddha.

It's just me. :frown:

Perfect example: English with Top or Bottom has become even more confusing once I learned that English SIGNIFICANTLY affects how the CB travels after hitting the OB, not just after hitting a rail.

So how on earth can anyone calculate what High Left or Low Right will do?

Here Dr. Dave appears to break it down into simple parts. http://www.billiards.colostate.edu/normal_videos/NV5-3.htm SEE ALSO MY POST BELOW. I finally managed to post a screenshot! YAY!

On the first shot you use Low-Right because first you want to draw to avoid hitting the 4-Ball and then the English will make the CB avoid the 3-ball coming off the rail.

BUT...

...isn't the initial trajectory (the draw effect) also altered by combining it with English?
Hence the predicted path for a Draw is something totally different.

My question is: How different is it? Anyway to tell? Any drills to make one understand?

In a recent situation I had an OB closer to the pocket with the CB around the same position (as in Dr. Dave's vid) and I hit it with High Right, thinking (like Dr Dave might): Okay, now the Follow will make it go along the 30-degree rule and then the English will take effect off the rail, giving the CB a wider angle.

INSTEAD...

...what actually happened was the English created a monster and the CB didn't even hit a rail but made a beeline towards the opposite corner pocket. The 30-degree rule went right out the window.

 

[CurvedCue]

Okay, I'm uploading a screenshot of Dr. Dave's exercise which I mentioned. Hope this works!

View attachment 299706

 

[rubell]

Check out these videos. Maybe they will help. Try to not deviate from the center much, learn where the CB goes first. Then you can expand by putting more English.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d6RnevvCYFs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=87GbslLl7kA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G_AXKPfj_-g

Also very useful (natural vs reverse English):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S4bheDXsrRg

Note, that reverse and natural English behave differently in terms of how much off-center you need to hit.

"I more I learn the less I know."

In a recent situation I had an OB closer to the pocket with the CB around the same position (as in Dr. Dave's vid) and I hit it with High Right, thinking (like Dr Dave might): Okay, now the Follow will make it go along the 30-degree rule and then the English will take effect off the rail, giving the CB a wider angle.

INSTEAD...

...what actually happened was the English created a monster and the CB didn't even hit a rail but made a beeline towards the opposite corner pocket. Completely the opposite of what I wanted. The 30-degree rule went right out the window.

 

[victorl]

Curved Cue, a common problem among players new to using sidespin is that they use much more english than is necessary, resulting in a lot of deflection and an unexpected result. Try using about half a tip of side (or even less) with a smooth stroke and you should get the spin you need to complete the shot. Good luck!

 

[Neil]

Also, watch this http://billiards.colostate.edu/high_speed_videos/new/HSVB-23.htm

You can also peruse through here http://billiards.colostate.edu/bd_articles/index.html

As you will see, the english is changing the tangent line on you due to the squirt of the cb. IF you hit the ob into the same part of the pocket each time, with and without english, the tangent line will remain the same. Odds are, you are cheating the pocket when using english and getting a different tangent line. Side english will not noticeably change the direction of the cb after hitting an ob until it hits a rail. The compression characteristics of the rail is what changes the angle then.

 

[CurvedCue]

Check out these videos. Maybe they will help. Try to not deviate from the center much, learn where the CB goes first. Then you can expand by putting more English.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d6RnevvCYFs

Ok, what's interesting about that video (which doesn't talk about English) is it shows that to achieve Stun you have to hit BELOW Center.

Which is another confusing matter.

I mean so many books and instructors say to hit DEAD Center to achieve Stun. Are they all wrong???

Side english will not noticeably change the direction of the cb after hitting an ob until it hits a rail.

Yes, a lot of people (including Dr Dave) say this. On the other hand, a lot of people also say the opposite. Like the authors of Pool Player's Edge. They show in diagrams how the path of the CB is altered with English before it even hits the rail.

I and a friend experimented with straight-on shots using English and not using English. And the results were revelatory. I could readily see how the CB's path was changed: Right English = CB goes Right; Left English = CB goes Left.

So how can it be that English does NOT alter the CB's path after contacting the OB???

 

[DogsPlayingPool]

Ok, what's interesting about that video (which doesn't talk about English) is it shows that to achieve Stun you have to hit BELOW Center.

Which is another confusing matter.

I mean so many books and instructors say to hit DEAD Center to achieve Stun. Are they all wrong???

A cue ball hit with follow will basically start rolling immediately. Hit with center it will skid briefly then start rolling. Hit with draw it will start out with back spin, then skid, and finally will start rolling.

In order to hit a proper stun shot you often do need to hit below center. The reason is pretty simple. A stun shot requires the CB to be skidding with no roll at impact (i.e. neither rolling or back spin). Depending on how far away the CB is from the object ball and how hard you hit the shot, you may need to use low in order for the CB to be skidding at impact.

When you strike the CB dead center it starts skidding, but friction with the cloth scrubs off that skid and converts to over spin, or more accurately roll. So to get the CB skidding with no spin at impact it may be necessary to start it out with back spin so it is skidding when it contacts the OB. Obviously it requires practice. :grin:

 

[Neil]

Ok, what's interesting about that video (which doesn't talk about English) is it shows that to achieve Stun you have to hit BELOW Center.

Which is another confusing matter.

I mean so many books and instructors say to hit DEAD Center to achieve Stun. Are they all wrong???



Yes, a lot of people (including Dr Dave) say this. On the other hand, a lot of people also say the opposite. Like the authors of Pool Player's Edge. They show in diagrams how the path of the CB is altered with English before it even hits the rail.

I and a friend experimented with straight-on shots using English and not using English. And the results were revelatory. I could readily see how the CB's path was changed: Right English = CB goes Right; Left English = CB goes Left.

So how can it be that English does NOT alter the CB's path after contacting the OB???

If you watch the video, you will know.

 

[rubell]

On stun shots, you need to hit just below the center or you may follow.

On English, this might help to understand. If you use right English and the CB goes right, then it means you pivot the cue to the right (and probably apply too much English), correct? This is one way of doing it.

You also can try to "parallel" the cue to hit off-center. Most likely the CB will go left then. Try to experiment to understand how it works and keep your stroke consistent between experiments. Then you can change your strength to see how the balls behavior depends on the stroke strength.

Ok, what's interesting about that video (which doesn't talk about English) is it shows that to achieve Stun you have to hit BELOW Center.

I mean so many books and instructors say to hit DEAD Center to achieve Stun. Are they all wrong???

....
I and a friend experimented with straight-on shots using English and not using English. And the results were revelatory. I could readily see how the CB's path was changed: Right English = CB goes Right; Left English = CB goes Left.
...

 

[CurvedCue]

If you watch the video, you will know.

Those Mika Immomen vids are actually pretty good (how much is this set?)

Unfortunately though they didn't go into using English with Follow or Draw.
And how the resulting Follow or Draw is or is not affected.

Here's the thing: I experimented with close STRAIGHT-ON shots. The CB path was
HUGELY affected when using English vs. not.

Am I really the only one in the world who can get such results???

 

[rubell]

Those Mika Immomen vids are actually pretty good (how much is this set?)

I think Neil meant the video link he sent. It explains relationships between different components of the stroke.

Am I really the only one in the world who can get such results???

What you are experiencing is deflection (squirt,swerve). Everyone has it. Also, the direction of your stroke matters. Dr Dave explains this subject in details.

Check out http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/squirt.html
or specifically http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/squirt.html#confusion (this image explains the anatomy of a shot)

 

[rubell]

Unfortunately though they didn't go into using English with Follow or Draw.

The Dr. Cue video explains it a little bit. Natural and reverse English.

See also http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/English.html There is "Summary:" (search for "Summary:" on the page in your browser) section which explains it better, including the image from AZ.

 

[Neil]

Those Mika Immomen vids are actually pretty good (how much is this set?)

Unfortunately though they didn't go into using English with Follow or Draw.
And how the resulting Follow or Draw is or is not affected.

Here's the thing: I experimented with close STRAIGHT-ON shots. The CB path was
HUGELY affected when using English vs. not.

Am I really the only one in the world who can get such results???

You didn't watch the video I linked to. When you use english, you get squirt with the cb. That means you most likely did not hit the ob in exactly the same spot as without english. You may still make the ball, but you changed the tangent line coming off the ob. That change can be much more dramatic than many realize.

 

[CurvedCue]

View attachment 299769

Nick, this is what you were referring to. (Thank God for screen shots! ) I understand squirt and deflection. But this diagram does not show what happens to the CB after contacting the OB.

You didn't watch the video I linked to. When you use english, you get squirt with the cb. That means you most likely did not hit the ob in exactly the same spot as without english. You may still make the ball, but you changed the tangent line coming off the ob.

How I set up the balls were: OB near a side pocket. CB maybe 3 balls width away, in-line with the OB. If I use Center (or Draw or Follow) the CB will not go either left or right. But using English and presto -- it does.

When I get a chance I'll scan and attach a diagram from Pool Player's Edge that shows a differing CB path depending on hitting Right, Center or Left, particularly on angle shots.

PS -- What kind of sucks about that book though is they go to the trouble of showing how CB path is affected by English, but then immediately jump into hardcore stuff like High-Right, Low-Left but without explaining the WHY. I mean if center English has such a drastic effect than surely spin with English will be even more far-out. But none of the mechanics are talked about. It's like a transitional chapter is missing. I notice this about a lot of books.

 

[rubell]

That's what the videos are showing.

 

[Neil]

View attachment 299769

Nick, this is what you were referring to. (Thank God for screen shots! ) I understand squirt and deflection. But this diagram does not show what happens to the CB after contacting the OB.



How I set up the balls were: OB near a side pocket. CB maybe 3 balls width away, in-line with the OB. If I use Center (or Draw or Follow) the CB will not go either left or right. But using English and presto -- it does.

When I get a chance I'll scan and attach a diagram from Pool Player's Edge that shows a differing CB path depending on hitting Right, Center or Left, particularly on angle shots.

PS -- What kind of sucks about that book though is they go to the trouble of showing how CB path is affected by English, but then immediately jump into hardcore stuff like High-Right, Low-Left but without explaining the WHY. I mean if center English has such a drastic effect than surely spin with English will be even more far-out. But none of the mechanics are talked about. It's like a transitional chapter is missing. I notice this about a lot of books.

It's Neil, not Nick. You aren't understanding. When you use english, the cb squirts, you are no longer hitting the ob in the same spot even though it is pocketed. If you allow for the squirt properly, the cb will just sit there and spin.

 

[BilliardsAbout]

You can do exotic things with stun, even above center, if you're close enough, angled enough with the stick (elevation) and pound the ball hard enough.

As an aside, while you're learning, realize there's often many, many options with speed, vertical axis, thinness of cut and more, before you go to the sidespin with its hassles...

 

[jkohlhepp]

If you are shooting a straight in shot with center-left english, then the cue ball will squirt to the right. Assuming you are still aiming dead straight, when the cue ball squirts to the right, then the cue ball will slightly cut the ball resulting in the cue ball going a bit right after it impacts the object ball. If you are using high-left or low-left, then yes, the cue ball will move a bit left after it hits the object ball even if it is a straight in shot.

 

[CJ Wiley]

learn to do whatever we "think" with the cue ball.

"I more I learn the less I know."

No, that's not Buddha.

It's just me. :frown:

Perfect example: English with Top or Bottom has become even more confusing once I learned that English SIGNIFICANTLY affects how the CB travels after hitting the OB, not just after hitting a rail.

So how on earth can anyone calculate what High Left or Low Right will do?

Here Dr. Dave appears to break it down into simple parts. http://www.billiards.colostate.edu/normal_videos/NV5-3.htm SEE ALSO MY POST BELOW. I finally managed to post a screenshot! YAY!

On the first shot you use Low-Right because first you want to draw to avoid hitting the 4-Ball and then the English will make the CB avoid the 3-ball coming off the rail.

BUT...

...isn't the initial trajectory (the draw effect) also altered by combining it with English?
Hence the predicted path for a Draw is something totally different.

My question is: How different is it? Anyway to tell? Any drills to make one understand?

In a recent situation I had an OB closer to the pocket with the CB around the same position (as in Dr. Dave's vid) and I hit it with High Right, thinking (like Dr Dave might): Okay, now the Follow will make it go along the 30-degree rule and then the English will take effect off the rail, giving the CB a wider angle.

INSTEAD...

...what actually happened was the English created a monster and the CB didn't even hit a rail but made a beeline towards the opposite corner pocket. The 30-degree rule went right out the window.

Seek to master "no spin" first, so you have a solid index to build on. We all have to have a reference point, or we won't learn to do whatever we "think" with the cue ball.

 

[CurvedCue]

That's what the videos are showing.

Nick, I only saw Dr Cue using the cushions to show effects of English. Didn’t see him pocket a ball then point out the path of the CB afterwards.

It's Neil, not Nick.

Now Neil. Yes, I know you’re Neil and not Nick. The first part of my last post was directed to Nick. But this is for you, Neil. Of course, the real question is: Where’s Nell? Btw, I’m changing my name to Nate. (Sorry, couldn’t help myself! :grin

Here is that diagram from Pool Player’s Edge. You can clearly see how the CB’s trajectory (before hitting the rail) is different depending on the English.

View attachment 300003

Since I found this out, I know even less about anything. All I can do now is pray the CB isn’t going to end up in a totally disastrous position. :frown: Forget about calculating anything. The variables are more numerous than stars in the Milky Way.

PS -- To add even more confusion: Center Ball is showed in this diagram as moving more or less along the Tangent Line. But I understand that's wrong. You have to hit BELOW Center to follow a Tangent. So what good is using "no spin" Center Ball as a reference?