Experiments in looking at the cueball while delivering the stroke.
- Thread starter gregcantrall
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I have petitioned management for relocation of this thread to the sticky elevation. My case is based on updates to the original post that makes evidence and facts more readily available to NewBees.
An added benefit is removing it from the community lawn and placing it on management's lawn could relieve the stress experienced by the "Get off my lawn" faction.
An added benefit is removing it from the community lawn and placing it on management's lawn could relieve the stress experienced by the "Get off my lawn" faction.
4-21-23, 6:48 here. Ronnie is playing Vafaei. The cameras have given at least 6 good looks at Ronnie's eyes. Stephen Hendry is commenting. What a double lesson/entertainment. I get it on DAZN. Oops gotta go frame 2 is on.
from Stephen's Co-commentator that has equal credentials. That came after the close look at his eye pattern. Ronnie still dialing it in 2-0 (but no centuries:shrug
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Comments regarding disrespect. Along the lines of "Don't poke the Gorrilla" followed by "Don't miss"
Ronnie demonstrates that there's a lot more to it after the eye pattern. When you put it all together you get "Inch Perfect".
Take the Knowledge and Mechanics(robotics) add them to the Focus and you get a Strong Player.
Take the Knowledge and Mechanics(robotics) add them to the Focus and you get a Strong Player.
In the thread Shot / stroke problem a poster put forth the proposition that looking at the cueball while delivering the stroke was "fundamentally wrong". I had already provided evidence that Willie Hoppe considered looking at the cueball while delivering the stroke as fundamentally basic. I had read Willie Hoppies book Billiards As It Should Be Played well over 20 years ago. At the time I was content with my aiming process and just chalked up the cue ball last as a 3 cushion thing. Kind of the way I considered his more upright stance an "Old School" thing compared to the chin on the cue of the top snooker players and shot makers. Anyway the discussion led me to experiment with looking at the cueball while delivering the stroke.
I started experimenting with looking at the cueball while delivering the stroke around 01-04-2013, and am pleasantly surprised with the result.
The first thing I noticed was expected. I was able to much more precisely place the cue ball.
The next noticable improvement was shooting off of the rail. My make percentage improved looking at the cueball.
The break shot was next, I was hitting the rack more squarely and more consistenly controling whitey.
Then I starting improving my make percentage on the long backward angle shots that I have always struggled with.
Now practicing with a new technique and competing are two different things. The first time I put it to the test in competition, it was a leap of faith. My percentage was so low on this shot that I figured what the heck what to lose, might as well try it looking at the cue ball. Length of the table and straight in married to the rail, make it and I get the same shot on the eight ball. It worked perfectly!
Now I am two weeks into this experiment and feeling really comfortable with looking at the cueball. So I go to an old cut shot drill that I know what my percentages of make miss looking at the object ball are and am able to make a higher percentage looking at the cueball last.
So after a couple of weeks my cueball control has improved, my shot making has improved and my confidence has improved with no downside. Could some of this improvement be due to the "New" effect? Certainly, but regardless of why I am thrilled with the improvement in my game.
Looking at the cueball when delivering the stroke has also given me new insight into the TOI and what CJ meant when he spoke of "pining"(sp) the cueball.
Further discussion on this topic can be found in this thread in the Ask The Instructor forum as well.
Why Object Ball Last?
Update-9/7/2015:
This thread has grown to 305 posts. There is a lot of background noise. I am going to consolidate some of the replies and linked information, that I find relevant.
From post #19; TAR interview with Johnny Archer.
From post #26; DrCue'sProtege Quotes from the linked interview.
At about the 45:38 mark Archer says...."Really, the #1 thing you have to concentrate on is the CB cause thats all you will ever hit"
He goes on to say a few seconds later..."Amateurs dont get any better because they dont focus on the CB"
Common sense - CB or OB - its personal preference.
DCP
From post #61 by Taco; "Rodney Morris also looks at CB last. He explicitly says so on the Break & Run DVD set. It gives him better CB control. He says Efren and Parica do the same. But what do they know compared to a keyboard banger?"
In post #361 marikian provides a link to a youtube video titled, "Advanced Fundamentals R Morris".(Edit: Video has been taken down.)
Cue ball last portion.(Video no longer exists.)
The statement that Efren looks at the cue ball last is proven false in this TAR interview. Justin asked Efren on my behalf and his reply indicated he does not. His body language indicate he would find it ........well he puts his finger to his head and makes a scratching motion.
In post #65 CJ Wiley says; "You have discovered for yourself "the cue ball is the target".....we're aware of the object ball on the last stroke, however the real "aiming" is done at the cue ball. The cue ball is where you get your direct feel and is your direct connection to the game. Connection is one of the keys to Consistency in pocket billiards. "
More CJ from post #69; "Just remember, we "aim" at the cue ball because it's the primary target (we actually contact it), and we "connect" to the object ball (because it's the secondary target, we hit it indirectly). This should answer some questions about what's really happening."
When asked by Okie in post #72, what he looked at last. CJ replies in post #76, "I aim at the cue ball last, and shift to the connection {with my eyes} of the object ball {last} as I hit the cue ball. Read this carefully and you'll "real eyes" why there's some confusion, everybody is correct, in a manner of speaking."
Upon further inquiry by Okie;
Do you shift focus before, during or after the last backstroke?
Thank you for sharing!
Ken
CJ responds in post#80;
Basically simultaneously...you go from primary focus cue ball to primary focus object ball.....and this MUST be done subconsciously. DO NOT try to think about this, just connect to the shot and allow it to happen. Any other way can be dangerous and I know a few pros that got really messed up trying to tinker with this.
In post #95, I try to give 3andstop an estimate of my level of play.
Poolmanis posts in #238; "Ronnie(O'Sullivan) said on some shots he watch cueball last even "they say it´s wrong"
It was some episode on his show at Eurosport."
From post #256; I found the episode;Episode 2 at 6:20
Question; "When you're, um, when you're down on this shot.... Are you, is the last the last ball you look at the cue ball? Or the object ball?"
Ronnie; "Uh I don't even know, to be honest with you."
Question; "No?"
Ronnie; "No, I don't even know. I suppose, it's meant to be the object ball, but I sometimes I find myself looking at the white."
From post #286; I link several shots of John Higgins eyes as he shoots.
John Higgins appears to look at the cue ball last:
All these links have gone. The newest videos of John done by Matchroom have excellent camera work and various looks at the players eyes as they shoot.
From post 287; I link Earl Strickland break shot showing eyes.
There has been anecdotal information that Earl looks at the cue ball last. Well I finally found a clip that shows his eyes while shooting. It is a break shot however and not necessarily how he shoots all shots. It does appear that his eyes are on the cue ball.
From post #288; I link to Paul Potier site.
I see Paul Potier added this on his site some time ago. Some very interesting insight from a knowledgeable instructor.
http://paulpotier.com/cue-ball-last-...ect-ball-last/
One last quote from Paul's article: "I had a very good friend who was a great Snooker player. We will just call him Bill. Bill and I played a lot of Snooker together, sometimes running back to back centuries against each other. One day I noticed him looking at the cue ball last during a shot. I asked him why he did that. He said he always looks at the cue ball last. I was shocked! Bill was one of the best Snooker players in Manitoba .......".
Update 3-31-21:
Just reviewed this post and noticed another addition that would be appropriate. Well just trying to make it available without wading through the background noise.
Oscar Dominguez when asked by my wife if he looked at cue ball last replied, “why would I look anywhere else?”
Update 10 year anniversary3-28-23:
Stephen Hendry and Ronnie O'Sullivan have taken snooker play to another level. Stephen Hendry now has a YouTube channel on which he speaks to the fact that he looks at the white last. He also stated that Ronnie does as well.
After wading through this topic I thought I would add my two cents. I look at the cue ball but to be more specific I look at the edge of the cue ball at an imaginary spot. The spot may be anywhere on the edge depending on the shot. It narrows my focus and shuts out any distractions.
Can you elaborate?
A friend of mine took a lesson from Kristina Tkach last weekend and mentioned that she and Fedor both look at the cueball while shooting and not the object ball
Not that I need to be convinced about CBL but that's comforting affirmation. Thanks.
It worked amazing for me on a 7 foot table, but I could never get any shotmaking consistency with it on longer shots on a 9 foot table, so I gave it up after 3 months.
For anyone whose fundamentals and strokes are as solid as theirs, I doubt it hardly matters what they are focusing on when they pull the trigger, after they have locked in on their target line.
What I did as my routine evolved is made sure the lines were set in my mind and that they stayed put as I got down into position. At that point the dimensions are irrelevant and pulling the trigger requires a hefty leap of faith. Once the doubt passes, you can get down for a ton of balls with no issues.
The ongoing Snooker World Championship is offering terrific insights. The camera work and world champion comments makes for an opportunity to learn. One reason pocket billiards is my hobby is I see unending learning and I enjoy learning.
Stephen Hendry is just one of the World Champions commenting. He his predictions include that the winner this year will be the person with the best control of the cue ball. Ronnie has put that on display so far. Shot making is the most obvious control. The inch perfect shape time after time is total control.
Stephen has even stated that changing the eye pattern might not be best for most. Well I assume he is referring to accomplished players.
Vafaei put some incredible shot making on display in his match previous to playing Ronnie. Judd Trump is known for making incredible shots. He is out. Si at 20 years old is putting incredible shots on display Plus cueball control. I can't be sure what his eye pattern is, yet but surely will get the chance to study his style extensively. What I have noticed is the similarities to Ronnie, right down to his expression when the shot is a miss. He has left commentators breathless repeatedly with Super shots.
Stephen Hendry is just one of the World Champions commenting. He his predictions include that the winner this year will be the person with the best control of the cue ball. Ronnie has put that on display so far. Shot making is the most obvious control. The inch perfect shape time after time is total control.
Stephen has even stated that changing the eye pattern might not be best for most. Well I assume he is referring to accomplished players.
Vafaei put some incredible shot making on display in his match previous to playing Ronnie. Judd Trump is known for making incredible shots. He is out. Si at 20 years old is putting incredible shots on display Plus cueball control. I can't be sure what his eye pattern is, yet but surely will get the chance to study his style extensively. What I have noticed is the similarities to Ronnie, right down to his expression when the shot is a miss. He has left commentators breathless repeatedly with Super shots.
Mark Williams has proved that.
The inch perfect shape is more readily attainable by millimeter accuracy in the strike to the cue ball. (well combined with velocity) Some might be able to strike the cue ball that perfectly even with the eyes moving ahead of the strike. Stephen Hendry gets his accuracy looking at the white as he hits it and says Ronnie does the same. The only time I know of Ronnie speaking to it he said it can be either and I think I have seen that in Vafaei. So possibly some shots require different last looks. The incredibly precise shape Ronnie puts one display could be cue ball while object ball is better suited for the incredibly hard shot that doesn't need the inch perfect shape.
Si has put incredible hard shots combined with inch perfect on display. So far I can't be sure what his method is but it's sure working good and I hope to see him and Ronnie clash in the semi finals.
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The camera work on the Snooker World Championship is making for great observations.
In order for an experiment to be valid, prejudice must be set aside. That doesn't mean lacking expectations it just means don't let that influence my conclusions.
This morning watching Si Jiahui playing, I got a few good looks at his eye pattern. It appears to me that like Judd he is looking up to the object ball ahead of the strike. With the incredible shot making he puts on display he is a treat to watch.
So that begs the question, "why do it any other way?" Well Stephen Hendry does it the other way and speaks to cue ball control being the deciding factor, in his opinion. His credentials lead me to put lots of weight to his words.
I certainly look forward to the upcoming matches and the opportunity to observe the methods of the contenders for the title of 2023 World Champion.
Edit: OH yes along with the title....500,000 uh pounds. I think that's $625,000.
In order for an experiment to be valid, prejudice must be set aside. That doesn't mean lacking expectations it just means don't let that influence my conclusions.
This morning watching Si Jiahui playing, I got a few good looks at his eye pattern. It appears to me that like Judd he is looking up to the object ball ahead of the strike. With the incredible shot making he puts on display he is a treat to watch.
So that begs the question, "why do it any other way?" Well Stephen Hendry does it the other way and speaks to cue ball control being the deciding factor, in his opinion. His credentials lead me to put lots of weight to his words.
I certainly look forward to the upcoming matches and the opportunity to observe the methods of the contenders for the title of 2023 World Champion.
Edit: OH yes along with the title....500,000 uh pounds. I think that's $625,000.
Update 4.29.23
The Video evidence is undeniable and even discussed with Stephen Hendry.
The Snooker World Championship coverage gives occasional but high def looks at the eyes and every aspect of the delivery. The delicate hands of the......what did Billy say when Efren's stroke was called, "pump handle" his reply was to the effect that he was playing a violin.
The Finals starting tomorrow and slated for 2 days.
Talk about Free Lessons!!
The Video evidence is undeniable and even discussed with Stephen Hendry.
The Snooker World Championship coverage gives occasional but high def looks at the eyes and every aspect of the delivery. The delicate hands of the......what did Billy say when Efren's stroke was called, "pump handle" his reply was to the effect that he was playing a violin.
The Finals starting tomorrow and slated for 2 days.
Talk about Free Lessons!!
So you're changing horses?
No, Just trying to present the evidence. The whole evidence. My original post was to address the false premise that cue ball last is "fundamentally wrong".
Cueball last is my best method. I have tried to present the evidence of players that get success with that method as well.
Stephen Hendry has recently addressed the topic.
Currently the Snooker World Championship is providing a look at the eye patterns of the world's top players. It speaks for itself.
Both methods can provide World class performance. The methods of the final 2 players is being put on display starting this morning.
My observation and expectation is that the most accurate pin point cue ball control comes from cueball last. Stephen Hendry stressed that is his and Ronnie O'Sullivan's method. He also opined that cueball control would decide the victory.