Ferrule and Tip Aiming System

[SpiderWebComm]

I set up an ob at mid table near the side pocket. CB one diamond away. Both balls pointing at the left point of the right corner pocket. I aimed left edge of tip at center cb/ob, pivoted to center and shot through that new alignment. The ob hit the pocket facing and went in. The path of the ob was altered using the ferrule/pivot method by about 1 inch, maybe 2. When I move both balls over to the left I miss the pocket because, again, the ob only goes 1 or 2 inches more to the right than straight in.

I guess you passed over the other post I made if it's coming up short. Shane uses all three parts of the tip. Left edge, center, and right edge. Set up the balls like you did when you missed. Aim left edge of tip to center of CB/OB and then pivot to the left with the RIGHT edge of the tip now at the center of the CB instead of the center of the tip.

No need to worry about where it's pointing on the OB. Tell me what happens.

If this doesn't fix it, there's more.

A friend of mine shoots like this for long shots that are not quite straight. It feels sloppy to me so I prefer just to aim where I'm strokin'.

Of course it feels sloppy to you because it's so new and different from what you normally do. Any change seems weird especially if you never pivot or use BHE. Training the eyes and brain are different also.

One other thing and I don't know if it will affect you like it does me. Maybe it's just me. But I don't get the same results with a low deflection shaft as I do with a regular shaft. If you have both types of shafts flip them on and off to see and let me know.

Maybe I'm making some kind of mid stroke alteration because it's nothing more than a mental bias.

 

[Renegade_56]

NOPE. No contact point! Follow the directions laid out. Get contact point out of the process. For right now, LEFT EDGE of TIP on CENTER OF CB WITH LEFT EDGE OF TIP AIMED AT CENTER OF OB. PIVOT CENTER OF TIP TO CENTER OF CB and SHOOT.

Does the OB go IN THE POCKET, UNDER CUT TO THE POCKET, OR OVER CUT INTO THE RAIL?

Well I was posting while you were editing in the video in the original post. There was no video when I posted my little bit of experimentation. I will try it Shanes way though,,, be dumb not to.

 

[SpiderWebComm]

Well I was posting while you were editing in the video in the original post. There was no video when I posted my little bit of experimentation. I will try it Shanes way though,,, be dumb not to.

Hold on, don't do anything yet. Dan White, yes, THE Dan White gave me a good idea in one of his posts that will get all of us on the same page with ball positions and alignment to a side pocket to make comparisons on the results.

I'm working on it now and will post how to set the balls up as soon as I can.

 

[SpiderWebComm]

...........

 

[BC21]

I'm out,.........margin of error is 12°.

 

[SpiderWebComm]

I'm out,.........margin of error is 12°.

Wanna do a video and show me that? Otherwise, adios.

 

[BC21]

Wanna do a video and show me that? Otherwise, adios.

I will remain incognito, just reading and learning.

 

[SpiderWebComm]

I will remain incognito, just reading and learning.

............

 

[BC21]

I'd rather you not remain incognito since you made the claim of 12" margin for error. Do a video illustrating how the scenario of shooting the 5 shots along the side rail into the opposite side pocket is going to miss by up to 12".

And if you think ALL shots regardless of the angle are done the way I described for those 5 shots is the same, you're sadly mistaken. There are changes made with the aim spot other than center of OB.

Right now you don't know what you don't know and what there is to know.

I was simply pointing out that an OB sitting 6.5" from the center of a side pocket has about 12° (degrees, not inches) of play. In other words, you can miss-hit the shot by almost a whole quarter-ball and still pocket it, regardless of varying CB positions. It's not a claim, it's reality. No need for video proof. Lol

 

[SpiderWebComm]

I was simply pointing out that an OB sitting 6.5" from the center of a side pocket has about 12° (degrees, not inches) of play. In other words, you can miss-hit the shot by almost a whole quarter-ball and still pocket it, regardless of varying CB positions. It's not a claim, it's reality. No need for video proof. Lol

............

 

[sixpack]

I missed the degree sign and took it for inches. No, you can't mishit the OB by a quarter ball and still make it.

Get it through your head Brian, I'm trying to describe this in the most simple way I can think of for starters. I have a feeling not many if any on here have used all 3 parts of their tip/ferrule to aim with in their lives.

I can take any shot on the table at any distance and do it, but you can't and they can't. Not yet anyway. Forget the math and crap you think is required. It's AIM and SHOOT using the tip/ferrule and various aim points. It's baby steps one at a time right now.

I used center and side tip aiming and it was extremely accurate and I played great with it. I posted it on here and was told that it's absolutely impossible.

I still use it although I've incorporated a pivot so that it works a lot like what you're suggesting here. The pivot keeps the cue contact a little inside so it deflects the CB outside just a touch to offset throw. The larger the angle the larger the pivot and the larger the deflection - and the more deflection needed to offset throw. It works pretty well.

 

[BC21]

I missed the degree sign and took it for inches. No, you can't mishit the OB by a quarter ball and still make it.

Get it through your head Brian, I'm trying to describe this in the most simple way I can think of for starters. I have a feeling not many if any on here have used all 3 parts of their tip/ferrule to aim with in their lives.

I can take any shot on the table at any distance and do it, but you can't and they can't. Not yet anyway. Forget the math and crap you think is required. It's AIM and SHOOT using the tip/ferrule and various aim points. It's baby steps one at a time right now.

Ok. I'll try to stop over-analyzing. . But seriously, from 6.5" out, you can really be WAY off on the pivot and tip portion and still pocket the ball. You understand that I'm sure. I know, it's baby steps, so I'll forget the finer details.

 

[SpiderWebComm]

I used center and side tip aiming and it was extremely accurate and I played great with it. I posted it on here and was told that it's absolutely impossible.

LMAO. I don't doubt it one bit. Typical naysaying crap from all of the self proclaimed pool wizards who know it all. Watch, the same will happen again.

I still use it although I've incorporated a pivot so that it works a lot like what you're suggesting here. The pivot keeps the cue contact a little inside so it deflects the CB outside just a touch to offset throw. The larger the angle the larger the pivot and the larger the deflection - and the more deflection needed to offset throw. It works pretty well.

How did you come upon figuring out the pivot on your own?
Just stumble upon it by experimentation or something else?

I've also figured out a way to use the center of the tip on CB to the center of the OB with a pivot to the outside for English and throw. But again, it's not confined to the center of the OB as the angles increase. Then there are other aim points on the OB with the tip on center CB before pivot.

 

[BC21]

I for one will not be a naysayer. I messed with around pivoting a few years back and saw some potential, even figured out how to adjust for varying distances between CB and OB. But not using tip portions. It's interesting.

 

[SpiderWebComm]

I messed with around pivoting a few years back and saw some potential, even figured out how to adjust for varying distances between CB and OB.

That is a yes for distances between CB and OB.

 

[sixpack]

How did you come upon figuring out the pivot on your own?
Just stumble upon it by experimentation or something else?

I've also figured out a way to use the center of the tip on CB to the center of the OB with a pivot to the outside for English and throw. But again, it's not confined to the center of the OB as the angles increase. Then there are other aim points on the OB with the tip on center CB before pivot.

I was trying to figure out CTE. I met someone at the Chicago AZB Meetup (Mantis99) who showed me the pivot. I was aiming with the edge of my stick at that time. It was startling.

I noticed that if I aimed the outside edge of my cue (so cut right use left edge of cue) at the contact point through the center of the CB and then pivoted I would make the ball in the center of the hole instead of sometimes hitting the edge of the hole or even rattling the shot.

I used to just aim the center of the cue at the contact point for straight-ish shots and then the edges for cuts around a certain amount. Then I added points in-between. So instead of aiming the edge of the tip at the CP I might aim the 2 o'clock mark at the cp. Etc.

It worked well but it did require a bit of judgement to figure out. Once I added the pivot then it just became edge to CP and pivot. The pivot isn't an objective 1/2 ball though. I don't know if the perception changes it or experience dictates how far to pivot but it just works. It kind of snaps into place visually.

I've figured out that usually I end the pivot with the center of the cue aiming at the center of the CB and the center of where the ghost ball would be if I just lay my cuestick down and look at it. But the angle of my stroke would add just a little inside english. So that's what I expect to be basically the perfect place to aim.

But when I'm doing the pivot it looks like it's just pivoting on the CB. Which I think is a perception thing.

Why a little inside? Same reason pro golfers don't play a straight ball. If they are playing a fade and they hit it a little off it will either be a little less fade or a little more fade. Both of which they can allow for on the course.

If they hit a straight ball and hit it a little bit off - it could go a little right or a little left. Either one can cause problems. The worst shot a pro can hit is the old dreaded "double cross" - meaning they were trying to play a fade and hooked it instead. I think it's the worst shot for pool players too but since most players try to play "straight" they don't even really know what happened except that they missed the shot.

Pool is the same way. If you are aiming to allow for a little deflection then if you hit a little more or a little less you'll be fine. Because the deflection will still work to offset the throw on the side you choose (a little inside).

If you try to hit it straight and slightly mis-hit you can hit it either too thick or too thin. Meaning that you'll have an unpredictable result with throw + deflection. So you could miss the ball completely. On straight-ish in shots you could hit the ball on the wrong side and get the wrong position or even follow the shot in. Even if you make the shot. I think aiming straight shots by aiming center CB to center OB is the worst way statistically to shoot them. I have much more success using a pivot. Like 9-10/10 instead of 5/10 for a full table straight shot. I was playing a guy 1p the other day and he kept leaving me trap shots...straight in stuck on the end rail...and I kept drilling them in using exactly the pivot system you've described here. He got very upset with me.

On the other hand, if you're shooting a straight in shot and you play for the CB to deflect a certain way - even on a straight in shot - you are putting your errors on the same side of the shot so you are much less likely to miss the shot and much, much less likely to have the CB do something unexpected whether you make it or not.

I suspect that CTE is similar to what I'm doing but because I aim at the CP instead of the reference points it's easier for me because I never have to try and figure out what the reference point might be. I can't wait for Stan's book to add to what I've already figured out.

 

[SpiderWebComm]

I was trying to figure out CTE. I met someone at the Chicago AZB Meetup (Mantis99) who showed me the pivot. I was aiming with the edge of my stick at that time. It was startling.

I noticed that if I aimed the outside edge of my cue (so cut right use left edge of cue) at the contact point through the center of the CB and then pivoted I would make the ball in the center of the hole instead of sometimes hitting the edge of the hole or even rattling the shot.

I used to just aim the center of the cue at the contact point for straight-ish shots and then the edges for cuts around a certain amount. Then I added points in-between. So instead of aiming the edge of the tip at the CP I might aim the 2 o'clock mark at the cp. Etc.

It worked well but it did require a bit of judgement to figure out. Once I added the pivot then it just became edge to CP and pivot. The pivot isn't an objective 1/2 ball though. I don't know if the perception changes it or experience dictates how far to pivot but it just works. It kind of snaps into place visually.

I've figured out that usually I end the pivot with the center of the cue aiming at the center of the CB and the center of where the ghost ball would be if I just lay my cuestick down and look at it. But the angle of my stroke would add just a little inside english. So that's what I expect to be basically the perfect place to aim.

But when I'm doing the pivot it looks like it's just pivoting on the CB. Which I think is a perception thing.

Why a little inside? Same reason pro golfers don't play a straight ball. If they are playing a fade and they hit it a little off it will either be a little less fade or a little more fade. Both of which they can allow for on the course.

If they hit a straight ball and hit it a little bit off - it could go a little right or a little left. Either one can cause problems. The worst shot a pro can hit is the old dreaded "double cross" - meaning they were trying to play a fade and hooked it instead. I think it's the worst shot for pool players too but since most players try to play "straight" they don't even really know what happened except that they missed the shot.

Pool is the same way. If you are aiming to allow for a little deflection then if you hit a little more or a little less you'll be fine. Because the deflection will still work to offset the throw on the side you choose (a little inside).

If you try to hit it straight and slightly mis-hit you can hit it either too thick or too thin. Meaning that you'll have an unpredictable result with throw + deflection. So you could miss the ball completely. On straight-ish in shots you could hit the ball on the wrong side and get the wrong position or even follow the shot in. Even if you make the shot. I think aiming straight shots by aiming center CB to center OB is the worst way statistically to shoot them. I have much more success using a pivot. Like 9-10/10 instead of 5/10 for a full table straight shot. I was playing a guy 1p the other day and he kept leaving me trap shots...straight in stuck on the end rail...and I kept drilling them in using exactly the pivot system you've described here. He got very upset with me.

On the other hand, if you're shooting a straight in shot and you play for the CB to deflect a certain way - even on a straight in shot - you are putting your errors on the same side of the shot so you are much less likely to miss the shot and much, much less likely to have the CB do something unexpected whether you make it or not.

I suspect that CTE is similar to what I'm doing but because I aim at the CP instead of the reference points it's easier for me because I never have to try and figure out what the reference point might be. I can't wait for Stan's book to add to what I've already figured out.

Great post and I'm sure you'll take to Stan's material as naturally as a duck to water based on what you've done and currently doing. Just a few visual switches and the rest will come very easily.

 

[Straightpool_99]

Kind of reminds me of 8-packs system posted previously.

The thing is, with pivot systems of this nature, it's not a simple mechanical pivot, but a more variable pivot point. It's more art than science. I made a 60 ball run with the 8 pack system using it on every shot, so it's not nonsense. If you try the mechanical pivot, then good luck.

When you have been playing this game for a while, you have an intuitive sense for when a shot is lined up straight into the pocket. What a pivot system does is kind of removing the doubt and adjusting and taking you straight there, or way off. When you feel like you are way off you have to start over, naturally. I think it's quite rare that you get really close without making it with systems like this, at least it is for me. But I kind of like the control the straight down on the cue aiming gives. It's much easier to fine tune my aim this way, and overall I do feel more consistent. If my game goes way down into a slump, then I might consider pivoting as a way to break out of it, though. It kind of takes your conscious mind out of the game, and that's the part that sometimes sabotages you.

 

[Vorpal Cue]

SHOT #1:
CB one hand span away from 1st diamond above left side pocket on head side. With the OB in place all shots will be right cuts. You can do the same thing later using the identical setup for left cuts. To be exact, the back of the CB is 8 1/4" from the side rail. When your alignment is correct, the OB should hit the left point on the pocket if hit straight on.

Align the LEFT edge of your tip/ferrule to the center of the CB and the center of the OB. Pivot 1/2 tip so the center of it is now at the center of the CB and stroke.
The OB should go in.


Didn't bother shooting these, it was obvious they were going in.

SHOT #2:
OB is ALWAYS in the same position as marked with your reinforcement for center pocket. Place OB 8 1/4" from side rail half way between 1st and 2nd diamond from center pocket toward corner pocket. This alignment should have the RIGHT EDGE of the OB hitting the point of the side pocket. Align the same as #1 above, pivot, and shoot. The OB should go in.

Had no problem dropping these in.

SHOT #3:
Same distances as before from pocket and rail with CB at middle diamond on side rail. If OB was hit straight on it should impact the rail about 2 1/2 - 3" from pocket point. Align the same as #1 and #2 above and shoot. The OB should go in.

I was 'just' making these, hitting very close to pocket point.

SHOT #4:
Ball distances the same as above but move the CB half way between the middle diamond on the side rail and diamond from the corner pocket.

Tip/ferrule alignment the same as above and shoot.

The OB may or may not go in. If it undercuts and hits the point do the initial alignment as above with the left side of the tip/ferrule at the center of the CB to the center of the OB but then pivot so the RIGHT SIDE of the tip/ferrule is at the center of the CB. It will be a FULL TIP pivot instead of a 1/2 tip pivot. Shoot the shot.
It should now go in. We've just used all three parts of the tip/ferrule as Shane does.

Needed the full tip pivot to consistently make these. Hitting the pocket point with half tip pivot. Could be my tip is too close to the CB. I'm using about an inch ball to tip distance.

SHOT #5:
OB and CB same distance from pocket and rail but place the CB away from the last diamond from the side pocket closest to the corner pocket.
Left side of tip/ferrule at center CB to center OB, pivot with RIGHT SIDE of tip/ferrule at center of OB and shoot. The shot should go in.

And all the ones I shot went in too.

Enough for now. Like I said, I did it as fast as I could and if you don't understand anything, speak up and I'll clarify.

If it comes together for everyone who wants to put the effort in, well move around the table some more until we hit an almost 90 degree shot.

Interesting system, something from Houle or did you come up with it? For extra credit I threw out a few 15 and 30 degree cuts and used the system to pot them. It works quite well.

 

[SpiderWebComm]

Interesting system, something from Houle or did you come up with it? For extra credit I threw out a few 15 and 30 degree cuts and used the system to pot them. It works quite well.

Yes, shot #3 is a "tweener" where the transition is close by. Both will make the ball.

It's a combo of Shane's 3 part tip/ferrule aiming system and another system of Hal's but not CTE. Shane says he uses the 3 parts of the tip/ferrule with contact points.
I'll be damned if I can get it to work with any semblance of accuracy and consistency using contact points. But I can with Hal's.

If enough guys show interest and go through the process as you have, I'll post what to do for all the rest of the cut angles. If not or I start getting, "it doesn't work at all, I don't like this or that, it can't work without pivot points, bridge length, ya-da-ya-da-ya-da" and never spend one minute on the table at work, SCREW IT. I'm not wasting my time and energy. Both are to precious to me.

In your case, or others like you who have put in the effort, don't worry. I'll take care of the rest of it directly by way of a PM.

Glad you had a good time playing with it so far and see the light.

If you have time, here's your next step. Keep the same pocket and setup for the OB but move down table on the same side you had the CB to the other side of the center pocket to practice LEFT CUTS. Same as before with CB distance from the rail except you'll start on the inside LEFT of the CB with all 3 parts of the tip/ferrule pivoting back to center.

For whatever reason you don't have the same success, it might be because of your head position with the dominant eye and vision center. If that's all good, they'll drop the same as for the right cuts. I think most everyone has a slightly stronger vs. weaker tendency whether to the right or left. But then again, maybe not for you.