Ferrule glue experiment

[conetip]

The Sumitomo rep was in at work about 3 weeks ago, gave me a new insert to try. The radius is 0.05mm on a VCMT11 insert, 35 deg included angle. It is a ground insert on the outer shape. There are also other very sharp inserts for turning plastics and copper etc, Iscar make a series that is used by the places that make oil seals and special seals etc. They come in all sorts of radius and insert geometries. Often these sharp inserts are a cermet grade, or a micrograin carbide. There is also nano coating systems on the inserts, especially the dlc or diamond like coatings.
They are great for abrasive materials. Just dont run them fast and will last a very long time. By sharp, I am referring to the cutting edge sharp, not a small radius sharp.
The sharp inserts are available in a wide range of insert types, but the more common insert tyes are the TNGG16, Triangle insert and can be used on both side, so 6 edges, the DCMT11, 55 deg insert, only 2 edges, the VNGG16 insert, 35 deg insert, double sided, 4 edges, smaller VCGT11 35deg insert, 2 edges, and the CCGT09 Rhomboid insert, 2 cutting edges.
I like the Kyocera CCGT09T302MP-CK -PR1125, and the TNGG160402R-S PR1125 These two by Kyocera are my favourites, as they allow the ability to cut materials from wood to plastics, right up to cutting bearing races on their end faces to thin them up.
I keep the inserts in their material groups, in its own box. So wood, plastics, Ali, Steel etc. That way the inserts have a much longer life.
On the lighter lathes like cue lathes, I find these sharp ground inserts to be very good.

 

[snookered_again]

I dont retip cues so I dont see why its done this way, from a machinist point of view if I wanted to change that ferrule. first I'd true up the stick so it's concentric and then make a ferrule that actually fits well. I wouldn't expect every stick I got to be very exact, especial if others have been in there mucking about.. plus shrinkage glue removal etc.. in a factory it's different.. that would be all new stuff being fitted in a production like manor so the tooling would be linked directly in size etc. Not hard to get a good fit when there is such repetition.. but re-tipping is all basically all one offs, you are fitting or re-fitting unlike components.

it seems like people have cue lathes and still buy tips that are pre machined to certain stock sizes, then they dont fit really properly so they put a lot of glue in there to fill the voids.. or trim the stick to match their hole and inner surfaces..

Im not saying you guys are doing it wrong, Not to anyone here.. it just seems like a funny way about things and I'm not really trying to make any valid point so much as I am trying to understand the process a little better.. maybe I'm missing a few tips ;-) who knows..

 

[SSDiver2112]

The Sumitomo rep was in at work about 3 weeks ago, gave me a new insert to try. The radius is 0.05mm on a VCMT11 insert, 35 deg included angle. It is a ground insert on the outer shape. There are also other very sharp inserts for turning plastics and copper etc, Iscar make a series that is used by the places that make oil seals and special seals etc. They come in all sorts of radius and insert geometries. Often these sharp inserts are a cermet grade, or a micrograin carbide. There is also nano coating systems on the inserts, especially the dlc or diamond like coatings.
They are great for abrasive materials. Just dont run them fast and will last a very long time. By sharp, I am referring to the cutting edge sharp, not a small radius sharp.
The sharp inserts are available in a wide range of insert types, but the more common insert tyes are the TNGG16, Triangle insert and can be used on both side, so 6 edges, the DCMT11, 55 deg insert, only 2 edges, the VNGG16 insert, 35 deg insert, double sided, 4 edges, smaller VCGT11 35deg insert, 2 edges, and the CCGT09 Rhomboid insert, 2 cutting edges.
I like the Kyocera CCGT09T302MP-CK -PR1125, and the TNGG160402R-S PR1125 These two by Kyocera are my favourites, as they allow the ability to cut materials from wood to plastics, right up to cutting bearing races on their end faces to thin them up.
I keep the inserts in their material groups, in its own box. So wood, plastics, Ali, Steel etc. That way the inserts have a much longer life.
On the lighter lathes like cue lathes, I find these sharp ground inserts to be very good.

Thanks for this. It could be its own new thread. Trying to make sense of what insert to used has had my head spinning. So many choices. What is best and when to use it. This will give me some base info to look up and hopefully get a better handle on what it all means.

I have been using CDBP Carbide Inserts for Aluminum TCGT21.51 / TCGT110204-LH

Haven't had any issues, but with no experience with any other inserts I don't know if it could be better. I use a cue lathe, so I am not turning steel. I'll look up some of these to see.

 

[SSDiver2112]

I dont retip cues so I dont see why its done this way, from a machinist point of view if I wanted to change that ferrule. first I'd true up the stick so it's concentric and then make a ferrule that actually fits well. I wouldn't expect every stick I got to be very exact, especial if others have been in there mucking about.. plus shrinkage glue removal etc.. in a factory it's different.. that would be all new stuff being fitted in a production like manor so the tooling would be linked directly in size etc. Not hard to get a good fit when there is such repetition.. but re-tipping is all basically all one offs, you are fitting or re-fitting unlike components.

it seems like people have cue lathes and still buy tips that are pre machined to certain stock sizes, then they dont fit really properly so they put a lot of glue in there to fill the voids.. or trim the stick to match their hole and inner surfaces..

Im not saying you guys are doing it wrong, Not to anyone here.. it just seems like a funny way about things and I'm not really trying to make any valid point so much as I am trying to understand the process a little better.. maybe I'm missing a few tips ;-) who knows..

I assume when you say tips you are referring to the ferrule. Yes, they do come in stock sizes. Small inner diameter and large that can be bored to size and slipped on or tapped for threads. They also come in blanks with no hole or as a rod you can cut to size. You don't fill the void if it does not fit, you make the ferrule fit the tenon.

 

[JoeyInCali]

I dont retip cues so I dont see why its done this way, from a machinist point of view if I wanted to change that ferrule. first I'd true up the stick so it's concentric and then make a ferrule that actually fits well. I wouldn't expect every stick I got to be very exact, especial if others have been in there mucking about.. plus shrinkage glue removal etc.. in a factory it's different.. that would be all new stuff being fitted in a production like manor so the tooling would be linked directly in size etc. Not hard to get a good fit when there is such repetition.. but re-tipping is all basically all one offs, you are fitting or re-fitting unlike components.

it seems like people have cue lathes and still buy tips that are pre machined to certain stock sizes, then they dont fit really properly so they put a lot of glue in there to fill the voids.. or trim the stick to match their hole and inner surfaces..

Im not saying you guys are doing it wrong, Not to anyone here.. it just seems like a funny way about things and I'm not really trying to make any valid point so much as I am trying to understand the process a little better.. maybe I'm missing a few tips ;-) who knows..

We deal with wood and dissimilar objects. Hence, we use oversized ferrule and trim it after installation .
We also get raw stock materials and can make them to fit already made tenons .

 

[shankster8]

Ok as a fly on the wall, that thread was informational as well as entertaining. Some aspects of cue making are just personal preference, style, habitual processes, years of experience (good and bad), historical lore which may be outdated and now internet misinformation adds to the mix.

I appreciate and learn from all of the information that came from your argument, keep on topic and please don't get my thread shut down lol.

I wouldn't say this eliminates the threaded versus non-threaded ferrules mitigates the glue line. Yes, you cannot see the line, but that does not mean it is not there. I did not do an experiment with threaded ferrules, so I am missing that data to compare this to. There are plenty of examples of cue makers that are able to eliminate the glue lines with their technique of choice. As I said above, I currently do both depending on the situation. I am doing mostly repairs on all kinds of cues and only a few new shafts, so I have not fully settled on my preference.

I agree a lighter ferrule will reduce deflection, but in my limited opinion the small amount of extra ferrule material (if you are not using some heavy ass material) isn't going to affect you that much. My normal cue right now has a Pechauer Pro+ LD shaft. My conversion cue I keep at the bar has a regular shaft with a 1" ferrule. I feel I play the same with both, so whatever difference there is I must adjust to it quickly. So, the tiny difference in the thinner walled ferrule shouldn't affect the player that much.

Not questioning your reasoning on this or the experience with your Predator ferrule, but so far, the repairs I have done that have excessive ferrule damage have been shafts like Predator and OB (see examples) Of course, thicker ferrules have cracked but not shattered or snapped off making them unusable. I'm not counting bar cues since they are abused and usually have cheap ferrules on them. 100% of all ferrules I have worked on that are loose are not threaded. This is why if I am doing a non-threaded ferrule, I always make circumferential groves to make a glue lock. This is difficult to do if the ferrule walls are already very thin. I think the benefits of a thicker ferrule out weight the cons of a very thin-walled ferrule just to get a slight decrease in deflection.

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"please don't get my thread shut down lol." I will try.
Allow me to make some objective comments in reply to your post #19. No offence is intended - you seem like a sincere poster:

"I wouldn't say this eliminates the threaded versus non-threaded ferrules mitigates the glue line." The reason I conclude threaded ferrules won't eliminate the glue line is because I don't believe the clamping pressure of hand tightened threads will significantly exceed the clamping force applied by your clamps. I recall Chris Hightower saying something to the effect that we shouldn't apply too much force to such threads as that could starve half the thread of glue. The point I'm making is that since the glue line is present despite your use of clamps, it would also be present using a threaded ferrule which wouldn't apply more clamping force.

IMO, if you really wish to eliminate the glue ring the first thing I'd try is what Barranger recommended. He recommended the use of West System's "special" hardener (I don't recall the number, I think it was 205 or 207, but it was called the "special" hardener). He explicitely stated in one of his videos that the reason he used that hardener was because it eliminated the glue ring. I believe I also recall he said it wouldn't "yellow". Joe was castigated by many here, but he was a sharp cookie in my mind - top notch equipment, top notch cue work, and he offered top notch wood for sale.

"I agree a lighter ferrule will reduce deflection, but in my limited opinion the small amount of extra ferrule material (if you are not using some heavy ass material) isn't going to affect you that much." You stated that is your "limited opinion"; I respect that. Another important consideration is the hollowing of the first few inches of the shaft. That typically is more important than differing ferrule material density or geometry. Is your pechauer pro+ ld shaft hollow at the ferrule end? If not, that may be the reason you can't tell the diofference between it and a regular shaft with a 1" ferrule. If you study the Predator patent info that SRVIKINGHIT brought us, you'll likely abandon efforts to reinvent the wheel.

"so far, the repairs I have done that have excessive ferrule damage have been shafts like Predator and OB". . . I can't explain that. I still have three Predator Z2's and two 314-2's. I preferred the Z2s because they were lower deflection, and you can get a lot more on the cueball with less effort. I played six hours a day for at least two years with Z2's and NEVER lost a ferrule. And I bought all my shafts used. And I liked to drink when I played, so I didn't baby anything.

I'm gonna end here and say: IMO if you're in pursuit of low deflection, read the Predator patent info and do what Predator did. To eliminate glue rings, first try what Barranger suggested before moving on to more complex methods.

 

[JoeyInCali]

Pics include threaded and capped ivor-x on the right ( last two )
Have fun in your experiments

 

[JoeyInCali]

The Sumitomo rep was in at work about 3 weeks ago, gave me a new insert to try. The radius is 0.05mm on a VCMT11 insert, 35 deg included angle. It is a ground insert on the outer shape. There are also other very sharp inserts for turning plastics and copper etc, Iscar make a series that is used by the places that make oil seals and special seals etc. They come in all sorts of radius and insert geometries. Often these sharp inserts are a cermet grade, or a micrograin carbide. There is also nano coating systems on the inserts, especially the dlc or diamond like coatings.
They are great for abrasive materials. Just dont run them fast and will last a very long time. By sharp, I am referring to the cutting edge sharp, not a small radius sharp.
The sharp inserts are available in a wide range of insert types, but the more common insert tyes are the TNGG16, Triangle insert and can be used on both side, so 6 edges, the DCMT11, 55 deg insert, only 2 edges, the VNGG16 insert, 35 deg insert, double sided, 4 edges, smaller VCGT11 35deg insert, 2 edges, and the CCGT09 Rhomboid insert, 2 cutting edges.
I like the Kyocera CCGT09T302MP-CK -PR1125, and the TNGG160402R-S PR1125 These two by Kyocera are my favourites, as they allow the ability to cut materials from wood to plastics, right up to cutting bearing races on their end faces to thin them up.
I keep the inserts in their material groups, in its own box. So wood, plastics, Ali, Steel etc. That way the inserts have a much longer life.
On the lighter lathes like cue lathes, I find these sharp ground inserts to be very good.

Neil, you probably know the number on these.
But, I got them at the fb group.
Before that, I used to pay some $10 each for another brand.
This guy had deals on them .
Great for handle wrap shoulder work too.
Sharp on the finish .

 

[SSDiver2112]

Neil, you probably know the number on these.
But, I got them at the fb group.
Before that, I used to pay some $10 each for another brand.
This guy had deals on them .
Great for handle wrap shoulder work too.
Sharp on the finish .

I was looking for something like that but couldn’t figure out the number. I have a 3/8 holder

 

[JoeyInCali]

I was looking for something like that but couldn’t figure out the number. I have a 3/8 holder

I'll go through my dm's and hook you up with the contact.
He also has the monster workhorse version.
Vcgt is the sharp version.
This one is the workhorse

 

[conetip]

Joey, You have a VCGT11 insert, in what looks like the R0.2mm .
Your work horse is the CCGT09 They are the great inserts for sure.
They look to be AK H01 grade.
There are some micro coated inserts out now too.
You can get them from Aliexpress , but it really is hit or miss for what you actually get.

 

[cueman]

I dont retip cues so I dont see why its done this way, from a machinist point of view if I wanted to change that ferrule. first I'd true up the stick so it's concentric and then make a ferrule that actually fits well. I wouldn't expect every stick I got to be very exact, especial if others have been in there mucking about.. plus shrinkage glue removal etc.. in a factory it's different.. that would be all new stuff being fitted in a production like manor so the tooling would be linked directly in size etc. Not hard to get a good fit when there is such repetition.. but re-tipping is all basically all one offs, you are fitting or re-fitting unlike components.

it seems like people have cue lathes and still buy tips that are pre machined to certain stock sizes, then they dont fit really properly so they put a lot of glue in there to fill the voids.. or trim the stick to match their hole and inner surfaces..

Im not saying you guys are doing it wrong, Not to anyone here.. it just seems like a funny way about things and I'm not really trying to make any valid point so much as I am trying to understand the process a little better.. maybe I'm missing a few tips ;-) who knows..

The people with lathes buy tips oversized then install them and cut them to match the ferrule. Ferrules are also made or bought over sized to the shaft and are turned to match the shaft after installed on the shaft.

 

[SSDiver2112]

I'll go through my dm's and hook you up with the contact.
He also has the monster workhorse version.
Vcgt is the sharp version.
This one is the workhorse

Thanks for the help Joey, I have ordered both.

Scott

 

[JoeyInCali]

Good enough for me

 

[SSDiver2112]

I'll go through my dm's and hook you up with the contact.
He also has the monster workhorse version.
Vcgt is the sharp version.
This one is the workhorse

Got them today. Very happy. Thanks

 

[JoeyInCali]

Good nuff for me

 

[Hard Knock Cues]

I'll go through my dm's and hook you up with the contact.
He also has the monster workhorse version.
Vcgt is the sharp version.
This one is the workhorse

Hey Joey, would please share with me? I'm having trouble finding the workhorse you show and I Sure would like to put one to work on my lathe.
Thanks
Robert

 

[Busbee Cue]

Hey Joey, would please share with me? I'm having trouble finding the workhorse you show and I Sure would like to put one to work on my lathe.
Thanks
Robert

I would appreciate the information also Joey.
Thank you

 

[JoeyInCali]

Hit up Matt at FB

 

[SSDiver2112]

Hit up Matt at FB

He was very helpful and easy to work with. Received them in just a few days.