Ferrule
- Thread starter tinman467
- Start date
It adds additional support for your glue for one...I think it would be less likely to fail by being threaded on.
I've made a thousand cues & never threaded one. Not needed...JER
Threading is pretty much a fail safe method. Non-threaded can also be done without glue problems as Jerry stated. Many ferrule materials are really more likely to crack if not solid capped. So when threading a solid capped ferrule you know the face goes up tight against the shaft shoulder and stays there. With a little more attention you can do the same thing with a capped and non-threaded ferrule. I have rarely seen anyone's threaded ferrule come unglued when glued with epoxy. I have seen many people's non-threaded ferrules come loose.
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And that same logic doesn't apply to a threaded ferrule because.......???
If the shaft is subject to moisture exchange, the wood will respond the same, regardless of whether it's
tenon is threaded or not. The epoxy doesn't care much either.
There's probably a reason why there are two common approaches to installing a ferrule and not just two.
Each has it's merits though I've never heard that resistance to moisture exchange was among them.
KJ
If the shaft is subject to moisture exchange, the wood will respond the same, regardless of whether it's
tenon is threaded or not. The epoxy doesn't care much either.
There's probably a reason why there are two common approaches to installing a ferrule and not just two.
Each has it's merits though I've never heard that resistance to moisture exchange was among them.
KJ
I think his comments are called thinking outside the box ( Now what the box is made of I will leave up to interpretation
), I agree with you I also do not understand what difference it could possible make.!!:smile:
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Threading ferrules give more glue surface area, same reason why full splices are generally considered better.
I wasn't saying that either sleeved or threaded was bullet proof from any conditions, but I have seen more sleeved ferrules vs. threaded ferrules come loose. So there for I prefer threaded ferrules.
A larger tenon diameter also provides for greater glue surface area.
Comparing the full-splice surface area concept to a threaded tenon is apples to oranges.
There is no threading involved in full-splice construction.
The threading of a tenon creates a 'minor diameter'. That minor diameter becomes the tenon's weak point.
Ex: What started out as a 5/16 dia. tenon, with threading is now reduced to a .250/.280" cross sectional
diameter. I fail to see how that has made threaded tenon construction stronger.
In that scenario, what started out to be an attempt to make the ferrule/tenon construction stronger,
has actually made it weaker.
I guess I just haven't seen as many ferrules falling off because they were sleeved instead of threaded as you guys have.
Maybe it's the glue.
KJ
I think he meant full splice glue surface area versus end to end splice.
But I see your point.
Bull,,,,,,,,respectfully.
A threaded diameter has about 3 times the surface area as the same diameter unthreaded. More surface area means better glue bond,,,,,,if not you need better glue. Increasing the tenon diameter gives a small amount more surface, "some" more ridgidity that may not be needed, and substantially reduces the strength of the ferrulle because of it's thinner walls. Whether you turn the tenons or thread them is up to you, but from an engineering standpoint they are definitely stronger with threads.
The point about cross section diameter is pretty much irrelevent since the pressures are almost exclusively axial, so any weakening in diameter is replaced and actually enhanced by the addition of a more stable, more durable material, or "ferrule". In either case it stays put with a sufficient glue bond,,,,but in the event that glue bond deteriorates,,,,I like threads for a backup.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JVAyMQj1DqI
I can't argue with that .
I thread my ferrules, joint collars and buttcaps.
I've never seen ONE TENON break b/c of it was threaded.
I've seen PLENTY of ferrules coming off b/c they were not threaded.
Heck I've seen McDermott ferrules coming off even if the top were threaded.
How many pressfit buttcaps with just weight bolt and glue holding them have you seen come off ?
The lug nuts on my tires are also threaded.
I can't argue with that .
I thread my ferrules, joint collars and buttcaps.
I've never seen ONE TENON break b/c of it was threaded.
I've seen PLENTY of ferrules coming off b/c they were not threaded.
Heck I've seen McDermott ferrules coming off even if the top were threaded.
How many pressfit buttcaps with just weight bolt and glue holding them have you seen come off ?
The lug nuts on my tires are also threaded.
Regardless, why the assumption that the size is 5/16? Mc Dermott have been using a 3/8 tenon with just the top 1/4 inch or so threaded I would guess for production reasons. The threads eliminate the need for clamping.
Check out this video at around 3 minutes and 30 seconds.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4T2pXa9znwY
I'll let you rethink your numbers on the '3 times' increase of the surface area claim.
It's more like a 1/3 increase in surface area and that's only in the threaded section.
There obviously is no increase in the unthreaded section. That 1/3 increase of surface area comes at a cost,
that being a reduced diameter cross-section by virtue of a minor diameter.
The cross-section diameter becomes VERY relevant when striking the QB off center.
Now you're starting to side-load the ferrule and this is where/when the tenon breaks.
A thicker, unthreaded tenon will resist the lateral force better than one with a minor (reduced) diameter.
That should just be common sense.
As far as needing better glue, we pretty much have that today. There may have been a time when threading the
tenon was needed to compensate for inferior glues but I think it's safe to say that those days are past.
I'm certainly not interested in going back to them but learning from them and moving on.
Ferrule strength, hmmm.
I use a large dia., unthreaded tenon and I honestly have never known one of my ferrule installs to fail.
They are not 1" long and they are linen based. If they weren't white you could call them rolled & molded phenolic.
Isn't that what J/B cues are using today?
Ferrule strength and my unthreaded BIG tenon are not causing me any concerns.
At the end of the day, it doesn't matter to me what you do and what I do shouldn't matter to you.
There are at least two schools of thought on this subject. I'm not saying either one is wrong.
I do like one better than the other though.
Hopefully, the OP has gained from the diversity of opinion; maybe not.
If this discussion has been food for thought, I'll throw in desert.
Does anyone know of any L/D shaft that uses a screwed-on ferrule???
KJ
Production, no.
That is if we don't count the first Tiger shaft which claimed to be an LD but had stemmed/screwed on ferrule.
I've never had a tenon break. Going back to the days I used 1" capped 5/16 18 ferrule. The tenon was about .800 long, 3/16 long 5/16 shoulder at the bottom then the rest were threads bullet nosed at top.
Perhaps Lomax, Guido and Ted Harris can chime in here. They travel all over.
Let's find out which ferrule type they fix more when they get to the dry areas.
My money is on threaded ferrules.